Grace McDunnough leads a discussion on “Does Second Life fulfill any basic human needs?”

  1. Grace McDunnough

    [13:41] So, to introduce this topic I should give you some background.

    [13:41] I know there are many interesting issues these days …

    [13:42] but as I have been talking about SL to colleagues, etc I was struck with a simple question

    [13:42] ‘What, if any needs does SL fulfill?

    [13:42] Does it offer something *unique* in terms of human needs?

    [13:42] So, that is the question I’d like to open up to the group.

    [13:43] To my right I have Maslow’s hierarchy of needs

    [13:43] A more academic treatment, but just a launching point really.

  2. Decka Mah

    [13:43] It offers perhaps a vehicel for those needs to be fulfilled but the needs remain the same

  3. Grace McDunnough

    [13:43] If you touch the board you can get a Kuurian tshirt to 🙂

    [13:44] Good point Decka, could you elaborate?

  4. Decka Mah

    [13:44] SL people can access channels for need fulfilment

    [13:44] connectiosn to other peopel for example without going to bars or clubs

  5. Grace McDunnough

    [13:45] Are human connections as meaningful or relevant in this space?

  6. Decka Mah

    [13:45] some of the barriers to relationships ..like appearance…are removed or controlled

    [13:45] Is there a score board for "meaningfulness"?

  7. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [13:46] SL is all about human connections … 😉

  8. Resident A

    [13:46] Publication permission denied

  9. Grace McDunnough

    [13:46] I am asking if you think the human relationship is as *valid* in a virutal space as it is in the real world

  10. Resident A

    [13:47] Publication permission denied

  11. Grace McDunnough

    [13:47] Is there something about SL that changes relationship development?

  12. Albermarle Pippen

    [13:47] It’s interesting to me that the bottom part of Maslow’s hierarchy is pretty much a given in SL so you can pretty much start at love. belonging

  13. DrFran Babcock

    [13:47] As valid, but different.

  14. Decka Mah

    [13:47] I have worked online for some 11 years and the relationships I have with colleagues, game friends are very real and I treat these people as REAL

  15. DrFran Babcock

    [13:47] Yes, relationships develoop more quickly.

  16. Grace McDunnough

    [13:48] Great observation Albermarle

  17. Natalia Zelmanov

    [13:48] I believe relationships tend to be more relevant in SL than RL. In SL we bypass the lower levels of Maslow’s pyramid.

  18. Resident A

    [13:48] Publication permission denied

  19. DrFran Babcock

    [13:48] Yup, Albermarle, I had thought that today.

  20. Albermarle Pippen

    [13:48] interesting ….

  21. DrFran Babcock

    [13:48] In SL we are all thin, well-fed and always clean

  22. Grace McDunnough

    [13:48] Not *all* ;_)

  23. Resident A

    [13:48] Publication permission denied

  24. Albermarle Pippen

    [13:48] I have to LEAVE the computer to do pretty much anything on the bottom part of the pyramid

  25. Resident A

    [13:49] Publication permission denied

  26. Decka Mah

    [13:49] I have seen quite a number of old, plump and grey haried SL-ers

  27. Natalia Zelmanov

    [13:49] We can focus on the higher level needs in SL.

  28. DrFran Babcock

    [13:49] Yes, but that’s by choice, by higher levels of the pyramid

  29. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [13:49] So SL shortcuts things – focuses on the higher levels instead

  30. Second Life

    [13:49] Gwyneth Llewelyn echoes Natalia. Sorry.

  31. Resident A

    [13:49] Publication permission denied

  32. Poinky Malaprop

    [13:49] more like – SL excludes those who are still struggling with the lower levels

  33. Natalia Zelmanov

    [13:49] 🙂

  34. DrFran Babcock

    [13:50] Agree with Poinky

  35. Steve Whizenhunt

    [13:50] 🙂

  36. Decka Mah

    [13:50] Esteem needs might be the reason for all the cute toons rather than the balding, tubby, less than perficet toons…it may change with time and comfort levels

  37. Grace McDunnough

    [13:50] And in what ways do you think those higher order needs are being met?

  38. Albermarle Pippen

    [13:50] Good point Pooinky

  39. Resident A

    [13:50] Publication permission denied

  40. Albermarle Pippen

    [13:51] Well I’ve only been here a week … and I’m not finding many places to get beyond being hit on

  41. Farley Scarborough

    [13:51] /hmm. Would it be that SL shortcuts it? Or just that you have to have the bottoms things taken care of to care about SL in the first place. Not sure the distinction matters.

  42. Grace McDunnough

    [13:51] What IF you shortcut the lower needs?

  43. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [13:51] It’s probably the same, Farley….

  44. Resident A

    [13:52] Publication permission denied

  45. Natalia Zelmanov

    [13:52] For me, the best thing about SL is Safety. I know nothing really bad can happen to me physically.

  46. Grace McDunnough

    [13:52] Some say the downfall of the SIMS, for example, was the requirement to fulfill the lower needs….

  47. Albermarle Pippen

    [13:52] Yes, Natalia … I feel that too

  48. Natalia Zelmanov

    [13:52] That is a shortcut. It helps me be more open to relationships.

    [13:52] And to new experiences.

  49. Grace McDunnough

    [13:52] What about emotional hazards?

  50. DrFran Babcock

    [13:53] That would make sense, according to Maslow

  51. Natalia Zelmanov

    [13:53] Of course, we are still on guard for those.

    [13:53] But emotions are a higher level need.

  52. DrFran Babcock

    [13:53] The lower needs are time consuming. Self actualization is a luxory

  53. Farley Scarborough

    [13:53] Yes, Natalia, that answers my question. Thanks.

  54. Grace McDunnough

    [13:53] Are there emotional hazrds in SL?

  55. Decka Mah

    [13:53] Grace, there are emotional hazards for those who invest REAL feelings with others who are "roleplaying"

  56. Second Life

    [13:53] Steve Whizenhunt agrees with DEcka

  57. Natalia Zelmanov

    [13:54] I agree, Decka. There are some "gamers" here.

  58. jeremy Neumann

    [13:54] perhaps more likely that SL fills emotional gaps in our real lives, perhaps

  59. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [13:54] However, you might also consider the following: if you have something to do in SL (say, an assignment, meeting with someone, etc). and suddenly feel ill iRL, you might not be able to make it.

  60. Decka Mah

    [13:54] There are LOTS of gamers here

  61. DrFran Babcock

    [13:54] Decka, these are the emotional issues that are inherent is this place

  62. Poinky Malaprop

    [13:54] The whole reaction to CopyBot seemed like it related to ppls feeling of Safety

  63. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [13:54] So while your *avatar* does not have "basic needs";

    [13:54] your RL persona certainly still has those!

  64. Natalia Zelmanov

    [13:54] Lol Decka…trying to be optumistic 🙂

  65. Grace McDunnough

    [13:55] That’s an interesting point Gwyneth, do you think the two sets of needs intersect?

  66. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [13:55] I’m open to suggestions on that 🙂

  67. Decka Mah

    [13:55] There are many roleplay games formthe Dand D and WOW kind who have migrated to SL because they have outgrown games and want to have more control…they love SL cause you can make stuff and control the sotry

  68. Albermarle Pippen

    [13:55] I’m surprised bby my avatar sometimes

  69. Grace McDunnough

    [13:55] Oh! Albermarle, please expound

  70. Albermarle Pippen

    [13:56] WEll what you said about the two intersecting

    [13:56] It made me think about how more outgoing my avatar is than I am for example

  71. Decka Mah

    [13:56] Has anyone here explored the churches in SL?

  72. Second Life

    [13:56] Natalia Zelmanov nods in agreement with Albermarle

  73. DrFran Babcock

    [13:57] And mine, less, a function of my typing speed, lol

  74. PRchick Hazlehurst

    [13:57] I’ve been to a women’s bible study grou

  75. Grace McDunnough

    [13:57] Agreed Albermarle

    [13:57] I have not Decka

  76. jeremy Neumann

    [13:57] I think my avatar gets the opportunity to do things I don’t in RL.

  77. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [13:57] I might give the opposite example… iRL, I do manage a team of people to work on projects in SL. Almost all of them I have never met in the flesh. When they’re in SL, they’re usually open, happy, fluent, and overall positive.

  78. Decka Mah

    [13:57] there are some interesting implicatiosn there for self-transcendence

  79. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [13:58] however, iRL, these people are mostly very ill, diseased, have psychological problems, or any other problems — related to their work, family, home, whatever

  80. Albermarle Pippen

    [13:58] WOW

  81. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [13:58] While in SL, of course, you wouldn’t notice how awful their lives are

    [13:58] but… on a day they’re REALLy bad…. they won’t be "the same" in-world either

  82. Farley Scarborough

    [13:58] Fascinating, Gwyneth.

  83. Decka Mah

    [13:58] Escape is a cathartic experience

  84. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [13:58] Well

    [13:58] to be honest – I had no idea when I met all those people

  85. Natalia Zelmanov

    [13:59] *chuckles* Gwyneth, Im afraid Im in that boat as well.

    [13:59] And I know of many others.

  86. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [13:59] they were just like everyone else in SL: happy, enthusiastic, bright and clever, very very hard workers all

    [13:59] hehe well

    [13:59] The point here is that while SL *masks* these basic needs,

    [13:59] I’m not entirely sure it can "get rid of them".

  87. Grace McDunnough

    [13:59] So they are not escaping the stress and pressures of work per se.. but the mere limitation of our outer human experience?

  88. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [13:59] Something much more like that, Grace.

    [14:00] iRl, for instance, tehy would be in deep pain, agonising

    [14:00] and you’d see that

    [14:00] in their faces.

  89. Albermarle Pippen

    [14:00] Do you think they are more likely to Self Actualiz in SL?

  90. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [14:00] Or dragging themselves with an effort to go to the kitchen to eat something

  91. Decka Mah

    [14:00] Gwyneth…there are many people in SL who aren’t all cheery and choose to be what you might call "dark side" characters in SL…griefers for example

  92. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [14:00] But in SL… well… you miss all that sad experience

    [14:00] they behave and interact like everybody else, but…

    [14:00] … if they’re in a really, really bad day, you’ll notice that.

    [14:01] Ah, that’s another story entirely, Decka 🙂

  93. Natalia Zelmanov

    [14:01] I think that while we are *here* in SL, our AV selves do not have the lower level needs.

  94. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [14:01] Our *avatars* don’t. Yes.

    [14:01] but hmm…. our avatars are just "projections of selves"

    [14:01] not "selves" of their own

  95. Decka Mah

    [14:01] Grace the dark side is still a set of needs being expressed and met or unmet

  96. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [14:01] (not yet at least!! )

  97. Grace McDunnough

    [14:02] I would reread the bottom level again and consider one of the alrgest activities in SL … is that an avi need?

  98. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [14:02] hehe

  99. Grace McDunnough

    [14:02] *largest

  100. Natalia Zelmanov

    [14:02] Lol

    [14:02] No. Its an optional activity.

  101. Grace McDunnough

    [14:02] An optional need?

  102. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [14:02] Probably not even an "avatar need" 😉

  103. Second Life

    [14:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn argues that avatars don’t really have “needs” 😉

  104. Resident A

    [14:03] Publication permission denied

    [14:03] Publication permission denied

  105. Decka Mah

    [14:03] Mine needs bandwidth…lol

  106. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [14:03] Ah. I though you would say "sleep", Scope 😉

  107. Grace McDunnough

    [14:03] Yes, if we look at the intersection of "avatar" needs to our *human* needs .. do they intersect?

  108. Natalia Zelmanov

    [14:03] Lol Decka

  109. Resident A

    [14:03] Publication permission denied

  110. Grace McDunnough

    [14:03] Are they the same? Different?

  111. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [14:03] Yes, Scope 🙂

    [14:03] Whew Grace

    [14:03] these are so very hard questions!

  112. Second Life

    [14:04] Grace McDunnough apologies

  113. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [14:04] no! don’t apologise 🙂

  114. Decka Mah

    [14:04] Ah scope…but can you ever get away form work when you have a 2metre commute

  115. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [14:04] Tough questions are the most interesting ones 😉

  116. Resident A

    [14:04] Publication permission denied

    [14:04] Publication permission denied

  117. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [14:04] To Decka: some clever people tend to say that the frontier between work and play will disappear in the 21st century 😉

  118. Second Life

    [14:05] Grace McDunnough hopes it will

    [14:05] Natalia Zelmanov looks forward to it

  119. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [14:05] Well, but back on your questions, Grace.

  120. Resident A

    [14:05] Publication permission denied

  121. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [14:05] Do avatars have their own needs?

  122. Second Life

    [14:05] DrFran Babcock wants a 2 meter commute with limitless TP possibilites

  123. Decka Mah

    [14:05] Gweyneth…it already ahs for me…I live in WOW and SL and it is work and play and research

  124. Poinky Malaprop

    [14:05] where is ‘play’ on the pyramid?

  125. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [14:05] ie. needs that are different (even if interecting ones) from the RL persona that "inhabits" them?

  126. Grace McDunnough

    [14:05] Where is play PM?

  127. Second Life

    [14:06] Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods* @ Decka. The same happened to me around 1992 😉 hehe

  128. DrFran Babcock

    [14:06] Self-actualization is play if it’s done right

  129. Second Life

    [14:06] Grace McDunnough agrees with Doc

  130. Natalia Zelmanov

    [14:06] I think my AV lets me focus on my higher level needs *while* Im in SL.

  131. jeremy Neumann

    [14:06] I think’home’ seems to be quite a basic need for both rl and sle.

  132. Second Life

    [14:06] Gwyneth Llewelyn agrees with Doc as well

  133. Grace McDunnough

    [14:06] Good point jeremy

  134. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [14:06] Wait, jeremy.

  135. Grace McDunnough

    [14:06] What happens if you don’t have a home in SL?

  136. Steve Whizenhunt

    [14:06] why would you need a home in SL?

  137. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [14:06] There is a difference there…

  138. Natalia Zelmanov

    [14:07] To change cloths, Steve 🙂

  139. Resident A

    [14:07] Publication permission denied

  140. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [14:07] … one thing is considering your avatar needs, as a "mask" of your RL persona

  141. Resident A

    [14:07] Publication permission denied

  142. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [14:07] one need, for instance, would be "interaction" ie. socialisation

    [14:07] but it’s not your avatar talking,

  143. PRchick Hazlehurst

    [14:07] I have been told that people in SL want the same things they want in RL so they buy homes.

  144. Grace McDunnough

    [14:07] OK , so let’s hear jeremy’s point …

  145. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [14:07] it’s YOU talking through your avatar!

  146. jeremy Neumann

    [14:07] more a space of one’s own.

  147. PRchick Hazlehurst

    [14:07] Except here they can have more of whatever they want.

  148. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [14:07] But that "one" is you… or your avatar? 😉

  149. jeremy Neumann

    [14:08] than a physical contrict.

    [14:08] construct…

  150. Albermarle Pippen

    [14:08] Jeremy, I don’t feel a need for a home yet

  151. Second Life

    [14:08] Steve Whizenhunt neither

  152. Albermarle Pippen

    [14:08] When did you decide you wanted one?

  153. Natalia Zelmanov

    [14:08] Its just a place to have some privacy in SL.

  154. Farley Scarborough

    [14:08] If I remember right, "Avatar" is a Hindu word for a god that takes human form. Interesting model for thinking about Avie and Realies.

  155. Albermarle Pippen

    [14:08] How long had you been here?

  156. PRchick Hazlehurst

    [14:08] But you might if you wanted to gather with friends for a private converdation.

  157. jeremy Neumann

    [14:08] me about 1 month.

  158. Albermarle Pippen

    [14:08] uh huh

  159. PRchick Hazlehurst

    [14:08] conversation

  160. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [14:09] Farley, more precisely, an avatar is a manifestation of a God (or any other supernatural entity) in our physical world,

  161. Natalia Zelmanov

    [14:09] I got my home about a week after I started.

  162. jeremy Neumann

    [14:09] but I have met lots of newbies recently putting down freebie homes wherever the can.

  163. PRchick Hazlehurst

    [14:09] Especailly friends from around the world

  164. Decka Mah

    [14:09] IM gives you a private conversation anywhere in SL

  165. Grace McDunnough

    [14:09] Are you defining *home* as a physical space or not?

  166. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [14:09] thus, an avatar is a manifestation of a human being in a virtual world.

  167. Eris Zaoh

    [14:09] personally I don’t think my av has any needs… just my needs expressed thru my av… even conversation is "my need

  168. PRchick Hazlehurst

    [14:09] Yes but not in a group

  169. Second Life

    [14:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn totally agrees with Eris 😉

  170. Natalia Zelmanov

    [14:09] I consider my SL home a physical space.

  171. Second Life

    [14:09] Steve Whizenhunt agrees with Eris

  172. Grace McDunnough

    [14:10] What about other forms/definitions of *home*?

  173. DrFran Babcock

    [14:10] Yes, I have a sense of home here. There is a space to which I retreat when I need to.

  174. Grace McDunnough

    [14:10] Such as belonging to a group, friends, etc

  175. DrFran Babcock

    [14:10] It’s not a space so much as a place to be on my own and create

  176. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [14:10] One might argue, for instance, that avatars might have "needs" of their own, regarding the "rules" of SL….

  177. Natalia Zelmanov

    [14:10] Yes, agreeing with DrFran

  178. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [14:10] … for instance, you "need" to wear clothes on a PG sim.

  179. DrFran Babcock

    [14:11] Like Virginia Wolf’s A room of one’s own

  180. Grace McDunnough

    [14:11] Oh Doc, I like that

  181. Farley Scarborough

    [14:11] Would the need to wear clothes be a need for acceptance?

  182. DrFran Babcock

    [14:11] 🙂 Me, too and I believe in it as a need

  183. Decka Mah

    [14:11] There are the three places and SL and MMORPGs hve been suggested as the new third place (after work and home ) the new liesure place

  184. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [14:11] While you – your RL persona – not feel that need, ie. you might wish to go around naked in a PG sim,

    [14:12] your avatar will need clothes, to comply with the rules of PG sims

  185. Decka Mah

    [14:12] anyone here trie dbeing a furry?

  186. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [14:12] But this is a very weak argument 🙂

  187. Eris Zaoh

    [14:12] good point Gwyneth

  188. Albermarle Pippen

    [14:12] great question

  189. Grace McDunnough

    [14:12] Rule enforced needs are not as fun, are they?

  190. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [14:12] hehe they aren’t 🙂

  191. jeremy Neumann

    [14:13] laws do not equal needs…

  192. Steve Whizenhunt

    [14:13] I noticed about my self that I modelled my avatar quite like my RL person… quite silly

  193. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [14:13] Yes.

  194. Steve Whizenhunt

    [14:13] (no fur for me)

  195. Decka Mah

    [14:13] Here is an interesting question that a colleague uses to surface values in SL…is sex with another av adultery?

  196. DrFran Babcock

    [14:13] YES, check the Ethics groups

  197. Grace McDunnough

    [14:13] OK let me ask a different question …. what feature about SL would you say you absolutely *needed*?

  198. Farley Scarborough

    [14:13] Hmm. Jeremy? I’d like to hear more on that point.

  199. PRchick Hazlehurst

    [14:13] That’s a very good question

  200. DrFran Babcock

    [14:14] The freedom to create

  201. Second Life

    [14:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn echoes DrFran

  202. Resident A

    [14:14] Publication permission denied

  203. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [14:14] or the freedom to interact

    [14:14] and LOL Scope!

  204. Grace McDunnough

    [14:14] Create, interact, what else?

  205. Natalia Zelmanov

    [14:14] Safety from physical harm. Which provides for the freedom.

  206. DrFran Babcock

    [14:14] Explore, learn

  207. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [14:15] Being able to make our own rules, I suppose

  208. PRchick Hazlehurst

    [14:15] I think as sl grows, the learning will become more useful

  209. Decka Mah

    [14:15] DrFran…explore what and learn what…both dark side and light side stuff here

  210. jeremy Neumann

    [14:15] privacy from releasing RL information should I choose.

  211. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [14:15] aye, lol.

  212. DrFran Babcock

    [14:15] I can’t always get to the Eiffel Tower in Paris, but I can see the Eiffel tower here all the time

  213. Second Life

    [14:16] Gwyneth Llewelyn points to Henrik Bennetsen’s definition of “Augmentationists” vs. “Immersionists”

  214. PRchick Hazlehurst

    [14:16] And speak to French people

  215. Decka Mah

    [14:16] Privacy and anonymity sometimes bring out the worst and reduce consequesnces for good and bad

  216. Grace McDunnough

    [14:16] Gwyneth has addicted me to the bennetsen’s defintion, proceed with caution

  217. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [14:16] hahaha

  218. DrFran Babcock

    [14:16] Oui, je parle avec les francais souvent ici

  219. Decka Mah

    [14:16] DRFran…the virtual Eifel does NOT create the same response as the REAL

    [14:16] A poor copy

  220. DrFran Babcock

    [14:17] Bennetsons?

  221. Micala Lumiere

    [14:17] I think the ability to collaborate and socialize is a big part of why SL is so popular. If you were still able to create and make things and work on your own, but were not allowed, in any way to communicate or interact with others….

  222. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [14:17] An Immersionist will always defend privacy and anonymity as valueable

  223. DrFran Babcock

    [14:17] Yes, but a trip to Paris happens once, maybe twice a year.

  224. Micala Lumiere

    [14:17] this experience would be completely different.

  225. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [14:17] An Augmentist, by contrast, will see the disadvantages coming from both

    [14:17] Both points of view do not intersect.

  226. PRchick Hazlehurst

    [14:17] And you can choose who you interact with. Unlike chat rooms where you talk to the whole forum

  227. DrFran Babcock

    [14:17] Yes, Micala, without the human connection it would be nothing

  228. Grace McDunnough

    [14:17] So when you are locked out of SL, for whatever reason … what *hunger* do you feel?

  229. Micala Lumiere

    [14:18] yes.

  230. PRchick Hazlehurst

    [14:18] or forums where everyone has a say

  231. Kristauf McDunnough

    [14:18] I think Sl is providing Community to a culture that has to many real and imagined obstacles/ dangers preventing that from happening in RL

  232. Albermarle Pippen

    [14:18] good question Grace

  233. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [14:18] BTW: http://slcreativity.org/wiki/index.php?title=Augmentation_vs_Immersion for more discussion on this

  234. Second Life

    [14:18] DrFran Babcock agrees with Kirstauf

  235. Decka Mah

    [14:18] DrFran then it is the memory that theSL site triggers or the longing for the real experience that it triggers that is the power of SL

  236. DrFran Babcock

    [14:18] Yes, and even the fact that is exists here, along with fantastic things we never see in RL

  237. Grace McDunnough

    [14:19] Hunger ,,, anyone hunger when unable to log in?

  238. DrFran Babcock

    [14:19] Yes, Grace

  239. Albermarle Pippen

    [14:19] ty Gwyneth for the reference

  240. jeremy Neumann

    [14:19] itch more than hunger

  241. DrFran Babcock

    [14:19] Restless, irritable, and discontented.

  242. Micala Lumiere

    [14:19] if there were no people and you were still able to create/shop/build here in SL, would it have the same appeal?

  243. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [14:19] Hunger for food, or hunger for human contact? 😉

  244. DrFran Babcock

    [14:19] Like an addict, I’m afraid

  245. Farley Scarborough

    [14:19] My hunger? What a great question. It’s for a kind of contact that is different from RL contact with people.

  246. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [14:19] Micala – to answer that,

  247. PRchick Hazlehurst

    [14:19] It would have limited appeal

  248. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [14:19] again, there are four types of "archetypes" of SL residents…

  249. PRchick Hazlehurst

    [14:19] One thing that is unique here is the element of surpise

  250. Albermarle Pippen

    [14:20] Do tell

    [14:20] what archetypes?

  251. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [14:20] The "Creator" type will probably enjoy SL as much with or without people,

    [14:20] and hmm

    [14:20] http://slcreativity.org/wiki/index.php?title=Archetypes

  252. PRchick Hazlehurst

    [14:20] Like a piece of art

  253. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [14:20] hehe

  254. Micala Lumiere

    [14:20] but don’t you think that even the ‘creator’ wants to share their creations with others.

  255. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [14:20] Briefly…

  256. Grace McDunnough

    [14:20] What is a creator with out a consumer??

  257. Micala Lumiere

    [14:20] exactly.

  258. Albermarle Pippen

    [14:20] an artist

  259. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [14:20] Creators – they thrive in art for its own sake.

    [14:21] Socialisers – they’re here for interaction with others

    [14:21] Businesspeople – they’re here to make money 😉

  260. Micala Lumiere

    [14:21] artists need human interaction as well. What is art if it stands alone?

  261. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [14:21] Philosophers – they’re here to talk about SL 😀

  262. Decka Mah

    [14:21] are your archetypes based around the heroe’s journey archetypes or your own model (they are Jungian based)

  263. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [14:21] Unlieke the augmentist/immersionist debate, where there is no overlap,

  264. Grace McDunnough

    [14:21] I think we need a MBTI for SL

  265. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [14:21] no human being is truly one of those 4 archetypes.

  266. Albermarle Pippen

    [14:21] lol

  267. DrFran Babcock

    [14:21] Hmmm, but a self-actualizing person would create for the sheer joy of creating…

  268. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [14:21] So most artists will want a crowd,

  269. Micala Lumiere

    [14:22] but none of those people can exist, truly, without others. Not the artist, or the businesswoman, or the philosophers.

  270. DrFran Babcock

    [14:22] And not need the other to have it exist

  271. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [14:22] and many of them will want to sell their creations.

  272. Kristauf McDunnough

    [14:22] Ome artist create TO communicate – others do ni Leonardo was very secretive about the Mona Lisa – like a diary

  273. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [14:22] And many will talk about what art in SL means.

    [14:22] Micala – yes. SL is the sum of all four.

    [14:22] But this happens only in SL 🙂

  274. Grace McDunnough

    [14:22] But, creations need to be consumed EVEN IF it is by the creator

  275. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [14:22] Other virtual worlds have different archetypes.

  276. Albermarle Pippen

    [14:22] but knowing those archetypes helps me to think about the *hunger* question

  277. Grace McDunnough

    [14:23] If what you built disappeared.. .not so interesting

  278. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [14:23] yes, that’s the limit case, Grace. Th artists who is his own consumer.

    [14:23] *The artist

  279. Kristauf McDunnough

    [14:23] The business man cannot exist and the soicialiser cannot … but a thinker and arts can

  280. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [14:23] Agreed, Kristauf

  281. Grace McDunnough

    [14:23] A thinker without others is a madman …

  282. DrFran Babcock

    [14:23] Hooray for the power of creation.

  283. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [14:23] There is a virtual world called DotSoul

    [14:23] it’s set up for artists

    [14:23] to create to their heart’s content

  284. Kristauf McDunnough

    [14:24] I disagree

  285. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [14:24] and show it off to fellow artists

    [14:24] There is no money, no economy

  286. Kristauf McDunnough

    [14:24] about the thinker

  287. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [14:24] Oh, the thinker can also have an audience of one!

    [14:24] Many do – LOL

  288. Grace McDunnough

    [14:24] LOL

  289. Kristauf McDunnough

    [14:24] a socialiser .. even a very philosophical one .. would fall into madness

  290. PRchick Hazlehurst

    [14:24] I think the fact there is an economy here makes it much more dynamic.

  291. Kristauf McDunnough

    [14:24] for many great thinkers it was the soicialising that drove them to madness

  292. Grace McDunnough

    [14:25] I was surprised to see it took so long to get to the economy.

  293. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [14:25] One might argue that one of the strengths of SL is that it allows all these archetypes to peacefully co-exist (most of the time!)

    [14:25] while other virtual worlds focus on just a few of those instead.

  294. PRchick Hazlehurst

    [14:25] And tha some people have jobs here

  295. Kristauf McDunnough

    [14:25] economy is the ruination of art and thought often

  296. Resident A

    [14:25] Publication permission denied

  297. DrFran Babcock

    [14:25] Philosopher types don’t think about money much, now 😉

  298. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [14:25] Kristauf – historically speaking,

  299. Grace McDunnough

    [14:25] Ah yes, so now that we’ve walked through the archetypes … I am still looking for an answer to the hunger

  300. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [14:26] a civilisation that became famous for its thinkers,

    [14:26] was one with a wealthy economy.

  301. Micala Lumiere

    [14:26] i hunger for the social interaction.

  302. Second Life

    [14:26] Gwyneth Llewelyn focuses now on the hunger

  303. DrFran Babcock

    [14:26] FOr me the hunger is wanting to know what others are doing, what’s new. What is happening while I am not there.

  304. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [14:26] there is something akin to addiction syndromes.

  305. DrFran Babcock

    [14:26] Indeed, Gwyneth

  306. Grace McDunnough

    [14:26] Please .. go on

  307. Kristauf McDunnough

    [14:26] I think Gwyneth that opression .. poverty is ehat stresses us to creativity and thought .

  308. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [14:27] So, perhaps more an "urge" or an "itch"

  309. Albermarle Pippen

    [14:27] I’m too new to have ahunger yet … I

  310. Kristauf McDunnough

    [14:27] disappointment – and relief sometimes Grace ..

  311. PRchick Hazlehurst

    [14:27] Creativity also comes from joy

  312. DrFran Babcock

    [14:27] And you found THIS discussion, Albermarle

  313. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [14:27] Well, psychological addictions are strong (one might even argue that they’re strongER) than physical ones 😉

  314. jeremy Neumann

    [14:27] definately Gwyneth

  315. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [14:27] hehe Albermarle… that will come 😉

  316. Second Life

    [14:28] Gwyneth Llewelyn winks at jeremy 😉

  317. Albermarle Pippen

    [14:28] yes … and this is THE best thing I’ve done so far in SL

  318. Natalia Zelmanov

    [14:28] They are Gwyneth 🙂

  319. Kristauf McDunnough

    [14:28] yeah but its the break up songs not thhe love songs that touch the heart of an adult LOL

  320. Grace McDunnough

    [14:28] 🙂

  321. PRchick Hazlehurst

    [14:28] I disagree

  322. Resident A

    [14:28] Publication permission denied

  323. Grace McDunnough

    [14:29] If, unlike Albermarle, you have developed some addiciotn to SL — what is it?

    [14:29] *addiction

  324. Decka Mah

    [14:29] Kristauf…depends on you personal mood and circumstances at the time you hear them

  325. Second Life

    [14:29] Steve Whizenhunt has to go, thanks for the discussion

    [14:30] Steve Whizenhunt ‘s RL avatar needs sleep

  326. Kristauf McDunnough

    [14:30] I think Im just lazy and this place is drive through life LOL – make that delivery

  327. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [14:30] What does it mean to be addicted to SL? Is that the question? 🙂

  328. Natalia Zelmanov

    [14:30] Im addicted to the "me" in SL.

  329. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [14:30] (see you, Steve)

  330. Natalia Zelmanov

    [14:30] (Bye Steve!)

  331. Decka Mah

    [14:30] Perhaps the addiciton is tot he feelings you ge when you do stuff in SL compared to RL

  332. DrFran Babcock

    [14:30] I love the schedule of activities, I love to be busy, I love the stimulation. TV BORES ME

  333. Grace McDunnough

    [14:30] Yes Gwyn

  334. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [14:30] ooooh Natalia – excellent one!

    [14:30] 2Very, very good.

    [14:30] *very

  335. Albermarle Pippen

    [14:30] Whoa

  336. DrFran Babcock

    [14:30] The "me"

    [14:30] Yes, I love my look

  337. Natalia Zelmanov

    [14:30] I cant be like my AV in RL

  338. Kristauf McDunnough

    [14:30] I am with Dr Fran on this one

  339. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [14:30] It’s not just the "look" I think.

  340. Natalia Zelmanov

    [14:31] Theres no Gurl6 in RL 😛

  341. Grace McDunnough

    [14:31] LOL

  342. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [14:31] haha

  343. DrFran Babcock

    [14:31] lol

  344. Grace McDunnough

    [14:31] That’s Micala’s addiciton as well

    [14:31] WB Mic

  345. Micala Lumiere

    [14:31] 😀

  346. Resident A

    [14:31] Publication permission denied

  347. Micala Lumiere

    [14:31] yay are we talking about hair!

  348. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [14:31] we are indeed, Micala 😀

  349. Micala Lumiere

    [14:31] hi scope 🙂

  350. Kristauf McDunnough

    [14:31] FINALLY!

    [14:31] lol

  351. Second Life

    [14:31] Grace McDunnough checks the time

  352. DrFran Babcock

    [14:31] I have thousands, and now I only wear this one.

    [14:32] I hve settled into a *ME*

  353. jeremy Neumann

    [14:32] The profiles are interesting on Sl – the ‘interests’ section.

  354. Grace McDunnough

    [14:32] I’m afraid we have hit the hour … I’d be OK to stay another 30 minutes

    [14:32] Everyone else?

  355. Second Life

    [14:32] DrFran Babcock checks her profile….

  356. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [14:32] mm hmm

  357. Micala Lumiere

    [14:32] I’m good to stay.

  358. Kristauf McDunnough

    [14:32] hahah Doc

  359. Decka Mah

    [14:32] It is interesting that peopel expect you to be the same toon…people say…oh you have changed AGAIN

  360. jeremy Neumann

    [14:33] most people have ‘I want to meet’ checked.

  361. DrFran Babcock

    [14:33] Gotta teach, working UFO class, lol

  362. Second Life

    [14:33] Gwyneth Llewelyn checks if she has that. Hmm

  363. Micala Lumiere

    [14:33] haha drfran

  364. jeremy Neumann

    [14:33] In RL people would freak out at such enthusiasm…

  365. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [14:33] Indeed I do. Interesting, jeremy.

  366. jeremy Neumann

    [14:33] cf Borat on the New York subway

  367. DrFran Babcock

    [14:33] We should do this more regularly

  368. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [14:33] Why do you think that happens?

  369. Eris Zaoh

    [14:33] LOL very good point Jeremy

  370. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [14:33] I mean, why does that happen in SL?

  371. Albermarle Pippen

    [14:34] I can stay

    [14:34]

    [4:34] I can stay

  372. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [14:34] One would argue, most of the people in SL are socialisers

  373. jeremy Neumann

    [14:34] becuase it is a safe opportunity to meet and interact with all sorts of people from all sorts of places?

  374. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [14:34] So the "safety" issue again.

    [14:34] Why is SL safe? 😀

  375. Micala Lumiere

    [14:35] I’m not sure that’s just in SL. I think that happens everywhere in RL and in online communities. I think people want to ‘belong’. If you’re at work, you belong to a group where you’re employed, if you are in a bowling league, you belong to that ..

  376. Decka Mah

    [14:35] but are they "trughtful" and "palying" or being "sincere"

  377. Micala Lumiere

    [14:35] so online I think people want that same sort of thing

  378. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [14:35] Ok…

  379. Albermarle Pippen

    [14:35] There’s also not a real investemnt of time and commitment in SL

  380. Natalia Zelmanov

    [14:35] SL is *physically* safe.

  381. Micala Lumiere

    [14:35] I disagree with that.

  382. DrFran Babcock

    [14:36] Belonging is a BIG DEAL here, hence all the groups

  383. Micala Lumiere

    [14:36] I have an intense investment of time and committment here.

  384. Natalia Zelmanov

    [14:36] Physical safety is important for a woman.

  385. Albermarle Pippen

    [14:36] yes

  386. Grace McDunnough

    [14:36] I’d say I invest a good deal of time, and commitment here as well

  387. Kristauf McDunnough

    [14:36] OMG tume sucking SL?

  388. Albermarle Pippen

    [14:36] Micala let me see if I can clarify ….

  389. DrFran Babcock

    [14:36] lol, Kristauf

  390. Albermarle Pippen

    [14:36] I’m not going to be having to go to funerals or sit with friends having chemo in SL

    [14:37] the way I do in RL

  391. Second Life

    [14:37] Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*

    [14:37] DrFran Babcock agrees

  392. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [14:37] and I also agree, Natalia

  393. Second Life

    [14:37] Natalia Zelmanov nods in agreement

  394. Micala Lumiere

    [14:37] but.. I would absolutely go to a major life event in RL.. of someone I’d MET in SL.

  395. Albermarle Pippen

    [14:37] Noentheless, Micala I agree that there are very deep friendships that can evolve here

    [14:38] I hear you

  396. Micala Lumiere

    [14:38] people attend weddings in SL quite often.. but, since no avatars are dying here, that does tend to cut back on the amount of funerals to attend.

  397. Decka Mah

    [14:38] actually there is a cemetry in SL for exactly that purpose..funerals and grave visiting and memorials to friends

  398. DrFran Babcock

    [14:38] I have witnessed it

  399. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [14:38] It’s no surprise for me at least that SL has about 50% women in-world, and they tend to stay online for longer periods — and noooo I’m not talking about gender-benders, but genetic women. I’d argue it’s because of those two things: physical safety and interaction opportunities

    [14:38] (well and the shops of course!)

  400. Grace McDunnough

    [14:38] Let me address the safety point.. does anyone think the CopyBot violated people’s *safety*

  401. Albermarle Pippen

    [14:38] A cemetery really?

  402. DrFran Babcock

    [14:38] Got a LM?

  403. Micala Lumiere

    [14:38] my safety is actually not anything I’ve ever considered here.

  404. Natalia Zelmanov

    [14:38] Dont forget the hair, Gwyneth 😛

  405. Kristauf McDunnough

    [14:39] Starax could have died…. peeps stop coming – we say they have quit

  406. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [14:39] hehe yes Natalia 😉

  407. Decka Mah

    [14:39] Albermarle..yes with the intent of tributes to lost loved ones…but many cemetries also for goth sex

  408. Micala Lumiere

    [14:39] I don’t, Grace.

  409. Kristauf McDunnough

    [14:39] I dont either

  410. DrFran Babcock

    [14:39] Relationships are on amphetamines here, come and go

  411. Grace McDunnough

    [14:39] Security of resources? Employment? Property?

  412. Natalia Zelmanov

    [14:40] Grace, Im more concerned about physical harm, not copyright violations.

  413. Eris Zaoh

    [14:40] I think I’ve considered safety here… at least in terms of stalkers and folks of that nature

  414. DrFran Babcock

    [14:40] Sorry to be rude, gotta go. 😦

  415. Kristauf McDunnough

    [14:40] they are in RL too Doc

  416. Micala Lumiere

    [14:40] security.. perhaps. safety? I’m not sure.

  417. Farley Scarborough

    [14:40] The CopyBot seems to have threatened the precieved safety of people who feel their finances are threatened.

  418. Grace McDunnough

    [14:40] *percieved* safety ….

  419. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [14:40] Oh… I would’t say it’s that bad, DrFran.

  420. Second Life

    [14:40] Grace McDunnough wishes we had another few hours

  421. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [14:40] lol yes yes

  422. Kristauf McDunnough

    [14:40] see the BUSINESS man has the most fragile of card houses

  423. Albermarle Pippen

    [14:40] OK I have felt stalked here

  424. Second Life

    [14:40] Natalia Zelmanov smiles agreeing with Grace

  425. Micala Lumiere

    [14:40] ok well I’m singing here in 3 hours, you all have to be gone by then.

    [14:40] 😀

  426. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [14:40] haha ok 🙂

    [14:41] Wait.

  427. Micala Lumiere

    [14:41] or at least have these pillows picked up.

  428. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [14:41] Why shouldn’t we stay and listen to you singing? 😉

  429. Kristauf McDunnough

    [14:41] yes!

  430. Grace McDunnough

    [14:41] You should, highly recommended

  431. Micala Lumiere

    [14:41] I’m just saying 🙂

  432. Kristauf McDunnough

    [14:41] mmmm

    [14:41] yep highly

  433. Grace McDunnough

    [14:41] So suffice it to say that I believe that people have developed a new form of need for safety here in SL

    [14:42] Perhaps I will hold another discussion on that topic 😉

  434. Decka Mah

    [14:42] Not NEW

  435. Kristauf McDunnough

    [14:42] and not developed it was built eight in

  436. Farley Scarborough

    [14:42] Good topic

  437. Kristauf McDunnough

    [14:42] thys the red lines all over

  438. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [14:42] hehe Grace – that would be lovely, although I expect it will be a rather tought one 🙂

  439. Decka Mah

    [14:42] Maybe we beed to invite some griefers to that talk

  440. Grace McDunnough

    [14:42] OK, well thanks for everyone for coming .. this was wonderful.

  441. Micala Lumiere

    [14:43] thanks, Grace.

  442. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [14:43] Thank you very much for hosting this, Grace!

  443. Grace McDunnough

    [14:43] Thanks for co anchoring Gwyn

  444. Eris Zaoh

    [14:43] Thanks all

  445. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [14:43] oh lol

  446. PRchick Hazlehurst

    [14:43] Thanks grace

  447. Decka Mah

    [14:43] some victims and some perpetrators

  448. Farley Scarborough

    [14:43] Thank you, Grace.

  449. Albermarle Pippen

    [14:43] Yes, I reiterate … this is THE bast SL experience I’ve had

  450. Natalia Zelmanov

    [14:43] Thank you Grace and Gwyneth! 🙂

  451. Decka Mah

    [14:43] Thanks Grace

  452. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [14:43] I just mumbled sillynesses

  453. Kristauf McDunnough

    [14:43] thansk thanks thanks

  454. Resident A

    [14:43] Publication permission denied

  455. jeremy Neumann

    [14:43] thanks grace

  456. Albermarle Pippen

    [14:43] Thankd G & G

  457. Grace McDunnough

    [14:43] I will capture the logs and we will send an announcement about the posting

  458. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [14:43] Always nice to see you too, Scope 😉

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1 Comment

  1. nethermind said,

    November 26, 2006 at 6:17 pm

    Fantastic discussion! Thanks very much for posting it – wish I could have made it. Lots of terms for me to digest, good stuff, mmmm!


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