Gwyneth Llewelyn on “Crowdsourcing”

UPDATE: apologies for the delay, we had originally intended to post the slides inline with the chat log, but everyone has been too busy to run through the chat log- Marv.

NOTICE: Some Residents did not give permission to have their comments published, the chat log has been edited accordingly.

  1. Poinky Malaprop

    [12:05] so, while Gwynneth gets organized

  2. Freedom Rush

    [12:05] what the…

  3. Poinky Malaprop

    [12:05] just a few points

  4. Resident A

    [12:05] Publication permission denied.

  5. Poinky Malaprop

    [12:05] I once again have my l33t TYranscriptPermissionGetterSpamBot running

  6. starcomber Vig

    [12:05] me is following a roman mosquito

    [12:05] then it got slippery

  7. Poinky Malaprop

    [12:06] which will aks you for permission to include your comments in the published transcript

    [12:06] let me know if it starts going out of control, and I will turn it off

  8. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [12:06] these chairs are a bit awkward, lol

  9. Poinky Malaprop

    [12:06] other than that, welcome to this Kuurian Expedition meeting

  10. Freedom Rush

    [12:06] esh

  11. Bingham Roundfield

    [12:06] i’m fine to have it published.

  12. Poinky Malaprop

    [12:07] where we are very fortunate to have Gwyneth Llewellyn

  13. Second Life

    [12:07] SignpostMarv Martin is back

  14. Poinky Malaprop

    [12:07] and Bingham roundfield

    [12:07] leading a discussion on crowdsourcing

    [12:07] so, whenevr you’re ready G!

  15. Biji Kuu

    [12:07] star – what are you doing?

  16. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [12:07] Thanks, Poinky

  17. starcomber Vig

    [12:07] sorry?

  18. Aliasi Stonebender

    [12:07] rock rock on.

  19. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [12:08] First, I should like to thank the Kuurian Expedition in Second Life to organise these interesting things, and I’m honoured to have been asked to do one of those

    [12:08] And secondly, of course, thank you, Bingham, for coming to this meetings as well!

  20. Bingham Roundfield

    [12:08] my pleasure!

  21. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [12:09] Bingham, which might better be known for his RL alter ego "Jeff Howe", is credited to having coined the word "crowdsourcing" 🙂

    [12:09] … and he has already been around here for a while, explaining what it is about.

    [12:09] So, if I say utter nonsense,

    [12:09] he’ll be here to correct me hehe

    [12:09] The format for today’s "conference" will be rather informal.

    [12:09] I’ll be showing some slides, which sometimes take a bit to rez ? they’re just behind me

    [12:10] I don’t like copying & pasting from notecards,

    [12:10] so bear with me as we quickly go nthrough the major concepts behind "crowdsourcing"

    [12:10] Those slides also raise a few questions.

    [12:10] Bingham here will attempt to answer them (he he)

    [12:10] … and then it’s up to you guys. This is much more fun if you actively participate.

  22. Bingham Roundfield

    [12:10] agreeed!

  23. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [12:11] Anyone disagreeing with this format, will be fed to the lions. So there!

  24. Second Life

    [12:11] Cherub Spectre is glad shes skinny.. so lions wont want her

  25. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [12:11] BTW I should also thank the government of Colonia Nova and Neufreistadt to let us use this brand new Theatre 🙂

  26. Second Life

    [12:11] Troy McLuhan checks to make sure his lion shield is still up

  27. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [12:11] hehe Troy.

  28. Aliasi Stonebender

    [12:11] Not a problem. 😛

  29. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [12:12] Ok… you’ll hear today many familiar concepts

    [12:12] and a few unfamiliar ones

    [12:12] I hope that by relating how crowdsourcing is both similar to some ways but different,

    [12:12] you can better understand what we’re talking about.

    [12:12] So, crowdsourcing, for a company, is "similar" to outsourcing ?

    [12:13] in teh sense that people are hired "outside" the company to do some tasks

    [12:13] The difference will be mostly on the *way* these people contribute to the company’s services/products

    [12:13] Crowdsourcing is often done by *end-users*… but we’ll see it in a moment.

    [12:14] Jeff Howe has proposed these 5 rules (points at slide in the back) to explain what crowdsourcing ? "the new labour pool" is about.

    [12:14] let’s see them briefly one by one.

    [12:14] First, the concept that this can be a "global" endeavour.

    [12:14] Crowdsourced labour can be "anywhere"

    [12:14] it is done remotely

    [12:15] most often through the Internet

    [12:15] more often than not, from people’s homes…

    [12:15] … or in their shor breaks between work hehe

    [12:15] And often, well, the company doesn’t even know the names of who’s working for them. 🙂

    [12:15] The trick for this bto work is to break up a large task ? a project

    [12:15] in many many micro-tasks

    [12:15] "micro-chunks"

    [12:16] so each takes a few minutes to complete

    [12:16] these are so tiny,

    [12:16] that individually, each costs very very little

    [12:16] globally, if we’re talking about each person contributing hundreds of thousands of time

    [12:16] we can build easily huge projects that way

    [12:17] The idea of crowdsourcing is that "the end-user is clever"

    [12:17] often they know MORE than the people in the company!

    [12:17] (does this ring familiar to you? 🙂 )

  30. SignpostMarv Martin

    [12:17] heh

  31. Resident A

    [12:17] Publication permission denied.

  32. Bingham Roundfield

    [12:17] could i make slight tweak?

  33. SignpostMarv Martin

    [12:17] sounds like SL’s volunteer program to me 😛

  34. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [12:17] but… the company is still important in this process: they provide the organisation

  35. Resident B

    [12:17] Publication permission denied.

  36. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [12:17] Sure Bingham ? feel free to drop in any time!

    [12:18] Bingham? 🙂

  37. Bingham Roundfield

    [12:18] i think crowdsourcing does involve the assumption that an end-user is smart and creative and, more to th epoint, capable of producing something of value for a company or institution or what have you, BUT

    [12:19] it’s the size and diversity of the potential labor pool that gives crowdsourcing such potency

    [12:19] sorry to interrupt

  38. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [12:19] Oh no, I’m glad you did, lol

    [12:19] Thanks for the clarification 🙂

    [12:20] Actually, that leads to the nice phrase I’m quoting from you,

    [12:20] 90% of everything done is crap

    [12:20] also known as "Sturgeon’s Revelation", Sturgeon, for the ones not knowing him, being a famous science fiction author

    [12:21] who is quoted to have referred to all artistic production in the world as being "90% crap" hehe

    [12:21] So. This means that a company has to understand this "self-evident truth" and be aware of it.

    [12:21] To successfully pool the work being "contributed" by the crowdsourced labour workforce,

    [12:21] they have to employ filters and methods to separate what is good, and what is worthless.

    [12:22] Still…. since the crowd CAn be a HUGE workforce,

    [12:22] in absolute numbers ? it means you’ll definitely get something out of it!

    [12:22] An alternative: let the users choose what works best for them!

    [12:22] Some possible methods: use ratings, comments

    [12:23] let them tell the company what they like and what they don’t

    [12:23] get rid of what doesn’t work for them ? use what is most liked by them!

  39. Bingham Roundfield

    [12:23] to jump in

  40. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [12:23] (we’ll definitely use some examples later and discuss this one hehe)

  41. Poinky Malaprop

    [12:24] I understand the SL rating system works really well

  42. Resident B

    [12:24] Publication permission denied.

  43. Second Life

    [12:24] Entered chat range by Timeless Prototype

    [12:24] SignpostMarv Martin laughs

  44. Bingham Roundfield

    [12:24] i think if the crowd has proven itself adept at anything, it’s the ability to winnow out the quality from teh crud.

  45. Rez Menoptra

    [12:24] *cough*

  46. Aliasi Stonebender

    [12:25] which fails to explain the continued success of most popular music, but I digress. <_<

  47. Resident B

    [12:25] Publication permission denied.

  48. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [12:25] hehe ok… just a few more comparisons

    [12:25] I’ve tried to put on the next slide

  49. Delia Lake

    [12:25] hmmm…

  50. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [12:25] a few possible approaches to "work"

  51. Bingham Roundfield

    [12:25] no, Aliasi, that’s an excellent point, and one we should return to

  52. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [12:25] from in-house…

    [12:25] … to outsourcing…

  53. Second Life

    [12:25] Ashcroft Burnham agrees with Aliasi about popular music

  54. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [12:25] … to crowdsourcing…

    [12:25] … to open source

    [12:26] I won’t go through them all. But you’ll see that there is some overlap to each approach.

    [12:26] (and you can all read the slide much faster than I can type anyway!)

    [12:26] Ok!

    [12:26] Any questions so far?

  55. Delia Lake

    [12:27] so in a way, to avoid the sink hole of group think, crowd sourcing might work best when the people doing the work do not know each other?

  56. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [12:27] I have started with three questions myself… we’ll try to see if we can answer them….

    [12:27] Delia ? good point… usually, in most crowdsourcing projects, we have seen immense numbers of people working on the same project

    [12:28] spread around the globe.

  57. Bingham Roundfield

    [12:28] there’s some evidence that’s true, Delia, tho it’s complicated and dependent on the specific example

  58. Second Life

    [12:28] SignpostMarv Martin has a question

  59. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [12:28] I wonder, Bingham, if the sheer numbers will make Della’s point "always true" to an extent?

    [12:28] Go for it, Marv!

  60. Ashcroft Burnham

    [12:28] I have a question: do you think that Linux is a good or a bad example of what opensource development can achieve?

  61. Bingham Roundfield

    [12:29] depends on the yardstick.

  62. SignpostMarv Martin

    [12:29] Forgive me if this sounds a bit odd, but isn’t "crowdsourcing" just a web 2.0 term for "mass volunteer work" ?

  63. starcomber Vig

    [12:29] he aspect of "isolation" is not necessarily good in my opinion

  64. Bingham Roundfield

    [12:29] whoa…

  65. starcomber Vig

    [12:29] confrontation always help selectin and assuring that competition exists within a "crowd"

  66. Bingham Roundfield

    [12:29] eek. which question first?

  67. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [12:29] Ok 🙂 One at the time.

  68. Bingham Roundfield

    [12:30] or should i just pick?

  69. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [12:30] In turn, Ashcroft’s first (although Linux, as the open source operating system, is "open source" really)

    [12:31] (and then the question if crowdsourcing is "volunteer" work ? I think that should be explained as well, it is NOT volunteer work, people get PAID for it)

  70. Bingham Roundfield

    [12:31] this one’s easy: is "crowdsourcing" a less wieldy way of describing the social/peer/collaborative nature of production in a wide array of fields right now?

    [12:31] yes.

    [12:31] buzzword?

  71. Second Life

    [12:31] SignpostMarv Martin gets paid for his volunteer work

  72. Bingham Roundfield

    [12:31] sure.

  73. SignpostMarv Martin

    [12:31] or has rather

    [12:32] (yay for free money from the government 😀 )

  74. Bingham Roundfield

    [12:32] BUT … important point, crowdsourcing generally isn’t volunteer labor.

  75. Ashcroft Burnham

    [12:32] Ahh, on volunteer work… I keep on my pocket computer a list of funny quotes that I overhear from day to day. One of them is, "Look, you can get paid volunteer work, okay?"

  76. Bingham Roundfield

    [12:32] not even in SL

  77. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [12:32] Exactly… not even here!

  78. SignpostMarv Martin

    [12:33] Live Help is volunteering and drawing on a crowd of people as a source for tech support

  79. Aliasi Stonebender

    [12:33] Although, since you use SL as an example, it can be "vastly cheaper than paying for it normally" labor.

  80. Bingham Roundfield

    [12:33] yeah, Live Help is interesting …

  81. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [12:33] The word there is "cheap", Aliasi.

  82. Justice Soothsayer

    [12:33] no. here many pay for the privilege of being the labour pool

  83. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [12:33] Not "free".

  84. SignpostMarv Martin

    [12:33] same with the Scripters of Second Life group

  85. Bingham Roundfield

    [12:33] VASTLY cheaper.

    [12:33] and Linden isn’t paying anyone directly, really

  86. SignpostMarv Martin

    [12:33] neither of those get paid

  87. Aliasi Stonebender

    [12:34] I dunno, getting paid a L$1k pittance – or the L$500 instructor stipend that got recently discontinued…

  88. SignpostMarv Martin

    [12:34] is that not crowd sourcing ?

  89. Bingham Roundfield

    [12:34] but by characterizing it as "voluneteer" labor we miss the point

  90. Resident B

    [12:34] Publication permission denied.

  91. Troy McLuhan

    [12:34] LL was paying instructors L$500 per class

  92. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [12:34] No, lol, but you can think the following… "together" we’re collaborating to do LL a huge "favour" by filling this world with content

  93. Aliasi Stonebender

    [12:34] you definitely ain’t doing it for the money. I might point out most of the Confederation of Democratic Sims (i.e., HERE) is much like this.

  94. Latonia Lambert

    [12:34] Is Second Life the only example where crowdsourcing occurs

  95. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [12:34] so, there is an insane number of hours of work put into this

    [12:34] but people get paid! A lfew L$ here and there.

    [12:34] *few

    [12:35] add those up, and we’re talking billions of US$ per year.

    [12:35] which LL is NOT spending.

  96. SignpostMarv Martin

    [12:35] crowdsourcing defeinately seems like a buzzword rather than a concept 😛

  97. Bingham Roundfield

    [12:35] the reputation economy trafficks in real coin

  98. SignpostMarv Martin

    [12:35] (ignore the typo)

  99. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [12:35] Ah Bingham ? could you perhaps than explain some good examples of crowdsourcing? I mean, Second Life/Linden Lab is just one example which is way below the radar

  100. Aliasi Stonebender

    [12:36] True, LL is very clever, they’re paying credit which OTHER people pay to turn into cash.

  101. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [12:36] WSJ did a front-page article *today* on crowdsourcing

  102. Troy McLuhan

    [12:36] Yes, more examples please

  103. Bingham Roundfield

    [12:36] and people are very much selflishly motivated to perform a task that will not pay them in dollars.

  104. SignpostMarv Martin

    [12:36] WSJ ?

  105. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [12:36] Wall Street Journal

  106. Bingham Roundfield

    [12:36] really? i had no idea …

  107. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [12:36] they gave the example today of Zimbra

    [12:36] a crowdsourcing project for a competitor to MS Exchange

  108. Second Life

    [12:36] SignpostMarv Martin waits for Slashdot to report it two weeks later

  109. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [12:37] well… but there are far more

  110. Bingham Roundfield

    [12:37] many.

    [12:37] should i run through some?

  111. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [12:37] (actually, if Bingham weren’t in SL, I think taht people would not even listen SL as crowdsourcing!)

    [12:37] Please!

  112. Troy McLuhan

    [12:37] Yes

  113. Latonia Lambert

    [12:38] I would like to hear other examples on the same scale as SL

  114. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [12:38] Perhaps Amazon’s Mechanical Turk first?

  115. Justice Soothsayer

    [12:38] SETI?

  116. Bingham Roundfield

    [12:38] sure: MT allows companies to post menial tasks that computers can’t perform

  117. SignpostMarv Martin

    [12:39] SETI > Mass Volunteerism

    [12:39] SETI@home rather

  118. Bingham Roundfield

    [12:39] then any ol person can log onto MT and make a few extra dollars by transcribing podcasts, say,

  119. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [12:39] (MT = Mechanical Turk)

  120. starcomber Vig

    [12:39] SETI is brute power w/o selection at any level

  121. Bingham Roundfield

    [12:39] or identiifying objects, or addresses in photographs

  122. starcomber Vig

    [12:39] Amazon was able to implement well a "recommend" system that works for them

  123. Bingham Roundfield

    [12:40] another: Threadless is a T-Shirt retailer whose designs are call created by the community of roughly

    [12:40] 300,000 users, many of them professional or amateur graphic designers.

  124. SignpostMarv Martin

    [12:40] Some good designs on there 🙂

  125. Bingham Roundfield

    [12:41] threadless is brilliant. great, great stuff.

    [12:41] more:

  126. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [12:41] /no

  127. SignpostMarv Martin

    [12:41] unlike Cafepress, threadless have a physical store

  128. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [12:41] oops

    [12:41] Sorry.. please go ahead, Bingham!

  129. Ashcroft Burnham

    [12:42] Did I miss an answer to the question about Linux?

  130. Bingham Roundfield

    [12:42] Innocentive is a similar network that matches up scientists with companies that have R&D problems their staffs can’t solve. with a network of 90,000 scientists

  131. SignpostMarv Martin

    [12:42] although threadless’s position on user-created content IP rights isn’t as nice as the one Linden Lab has

  132. Bingham Roundfield

    [12:42] what Innocentive clients are getting is, essentially, the potency of diversity.

  133. Resident B

    [12:42] Publication permission denied.

  134. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [12:42] That’s it in a nutshell, Soj!

  135. Bingham Roundfield

    [12:43] the most telling aspect of Innocentive is that there’s a positive correlation between succsful solutions and "distance from field," which is to say, unfamiliarity with the area the problem may technically rest in

  136. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [12:43] That’s interesting…

  137. Grace McDunnough

    [12:43] It also leverages the "Medicci Effect"

  138. Bingham Roundfield

    [12:43] it goes on: the Netlfix prize? i’d call that crowdsourcing

  139. SignpostMarv Martin

    [12:44] Is widely re-used Creative Commons media a form of crowd sourcing ?

  140. Troy McLuhan

    [12:44] If 90% of the creations are crap, but only one person does each job on MT, does that mean 90% of jobs done on MT will be done crappily?

  141. Bingham Roundfield

    [12:44] Marv: Agreed! on threadless and IP

    [12:45] Troy: MT has indeed had problems wiith quality control

    [12:45] tho in tasks that menial, perhaps the ratio is lower

  142. Rez Menoptra

    [12:45] That’s sorta the way it would sound, Troy

  143. Bingham Roundfield

    [12:46] Sturgeon’s Revelation is true of most crowdsourcing examples. not all…

    [12:46] can i go back to Marv’s comment about Threadless IP policy?

  144. Rez Menoptra

    [12:47] sure, I think we’d be interested to hear it

  145. SignpostMarv Martin

    [12:47] hehe. I had to email them to ask about it because it wasn’t immediately clear on the site

  146. Bingham Roundfield

    [12:47] as far as i know … and, full disclosure here, i simply can’t track all of these incredibly disparate fields at one time

    [12:47] BUT

    [12:48] i’m pretty sure SkinnyCorp has kept all the IP underlying the designs its sold over the last five years.

  147. SignpostMarv Martin

    [12:48] If Linden Lab had the same policy,

  148. Bingham Roundfield

    [12:48] and that raises some real concerns. now, the designers are stoked when they win

  149. SignpostMarv Martin

    [12:48] they would be allowed to sell your content if you quit SL

  150. Bingham Roundfield

    [12:49] this gets back to my stmt about reputation economy being a strong motivator

  151. SignpostMarv Martin

    [12:49] meaning they could sell Starley’s wand and keep all the money

  152. Bingham Roundfield

    [12:49] (And they also get, i think it’s up to $1500 for each winning design).

  153. Grace McDunnough

    [12:49] Isn’t that the model that There.com has?

  154. Rez Menoptra

    [12:49] which is peanuts in relation to how much sells, i’d think

  155. SignpostMarv Martin

    [12:49] similarly, Linden Lab could’ve given Donnerwood Media the IP rights to Tringo themselves

  156. Bingham Roundfield

    [12:50] but the contributors need to question whether they’re getting a fair shaek

    [12:50] shake

  157. SignpostMarv Martin

    [12:50] or, they could’ve resold the IP rights to get a proper, multi-player version done 😛

  158. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [12:50] hehe

  159. Bingham Roundfield

    [12:50] oh, who did have IP rights to Tringo, please?

    [12:50] i’ve been wanting to know…

  160. Latonia Lambert

    [12:50] Kermit

  161. SignpostMarv Martin

    [12:50] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resident_%28Second_Life%29#K_-_O

  162. Rez Menoptra

    [12:50] haha yeah, kermit’s all i can come up with too

  163. Latonia Lambert

    [12:50] will check his last name

  164. SignpostMarv Martin

    [12:51] Kermitt Qurik – Nathan Keir, developer of the game Tringo. Keir licensed the game to Donnerwood Media, however retains rights to the game inside Second Life.

  165. Bingham Roundfield

    [12:51] okay.

  166. SignpostMarv Martin

    [12:51] I should probably get around to adding Starley to that list sometime soon 😀

  167. Bingham Roundfield

    [12:51] interesting.

  168. Rez Menoptra

    [12:51] Starley, or STarax?

  169. SignpostMarv Martin

    [12:52] Starax sorry

    [12:52] getting confused with names

  170. Bingham Roundfield

    [12:52] do you all think that generally the core SL community feels a)

  171. Latonia Lambert

    [12:52] Kermit Quirk is his name

  172. Aliasi Stonebender

    [12:52] Starax, yeah. don’t make me call a tran on you.

  173. SignpostMarv Martin

    [12:52] mr wand guy

  174. Bingham Roundfield

    [12:52] adquately compensated for their contributions, and

  175. Aliasi Stonebender

    [12:52] *train

  176. SignpostMarv Martin

    [12:52] the SL community can sell their content

  177. Bingham Roundfield

    [12:52] b) as if they are able to exercise a voice in the developmentand growth of SL?

  178. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [12:52] Oh… I know that around a thousand users get indeed a comfortable living out of their … erm… "contributed content" 🙂

  179. SignpostMarv Martin

    [12:52] so if they’re not getting adequatly compensated, their content or marketing sucks

  180. Aliasi Stonebender

    [12:53] Yeah, unlike those other examples, residents keep the rights to their IP, LL just has (according to the ToS) the right to use your work for SL purposes.

  181. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [12:53] If you all don’t mind,

  182. Bingham Roundfield

    [12:53] that’s what i thought …

  183. Rez Menoptra

    [12:53] but b) i think is more iffy

  184. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [12:53] I’ll slightly change the subject to make you guys think a bit about something else 🙂

  185. SignpostMarv Martin

    [12:53] the community also has a strong ability to change the development and progression of Second Life

  186. Latonia Lambert

    [12:53] Residents do not get a say in the development of the platform

  187. Bingham Roundfield

    [12:53] right.

  188. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [12:53] Let’s move away a bit from SL,

  189. SignpostMarv Martin

    [12:53] if you’ll allow me to tp out, I shall show you how they did it 😛

  190. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [12:53] and go a "step backwards"

    [12:53] and take a look at what all those Web 2.0 sites are doing.

    [12:54] Look at bloggr.com or wordpress.com

    [12:54] where people contribute content

  191. Second Life

    [12:54] SignpostMarv Martin uses WordPress.com

  192. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [12:54] they get a few US$ from ads, through Google AdSWense

    [12:54] oops

    [12:54] *AdSense

    [12:54] so hmm

    [12:54] there is VAST amount of "contributed content" out there

    [12:54] … underpaid, of course

    [12:54] but hmm

    [12:54] it seems to be a similar model, don’t you think?

    [12:55] Ok… YouTube is different…. it’s really "user-contributed content", unpaid

  193. Grace McDunnough

    [12:55] Yes of course it is.

  194. SignpostMarv Martin

    [12:55] Ah

  195. Bingham Roundfield

    [12:55] whew … now this is a can of worms.

  196. SignpostMarv Martin

    [12:55] I’ve remembered something the BBC covered

  197. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [12:55] hehe Bingham 🙂

    [12:55] But with blogs, you’re able to get SOMETHING out of it.

  198. SignpostMarv Martin

    [12:55] Citizen Journalism

  199. Bingham Roundfield

    [12:55] what i’d like to do

    [12:56] is lay out two definitions for crowdsourcing.

  200. Grace McDunnough

    [12:56] You are able to get something out of it IF you have meaningful and relevant content – -just like SL, I’d argue.

  201. SignpostMarv Martin

    [12:56] There are services on the net where peeps can post footage of news events, and news agencies, TV stations etc will pay for it

  202. Bingham Roundfield

    [12:56] the one we employed for the original Wired article, which was fairly narrow

  203. Grace McDunnough

    [12:56] Revver is an example where you can share in the revenue — more of a pay for performance model.

  204. SignpostMarv Martin

    [12:56] Fuego!

  205. Bingham Roundfield

    [12:56] and the broader one that has emerged via, well, the crowd

  206. Second Life

    [12:56] SignpostMarv Martin points to himself

  207. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [12:57] Ah, good example, Grace!

  208. Bingham Roundfield

    [12:57] we did NOT include MySpace, wordpress.com or Youtube in the article

  209. SignpostMarv Martin

    [12:57] this is how the community changed the course of Second Life development- setting fire to themselves in the welcome areas to get rid of the taxation system

  210. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [12:57] yes 😀

  211. Bingham Roundfield

    [12:57] because we defined CS as the act

    [12:58] of taking a task ONCE performed by employees, and outsourcing it to a large, generally undefined

    [12:58] group of people in the form of an open call.

    [12:58] so threadless (which we didn’t use, fwiw), falls under that rubric

  212. Second Life

    [12:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*

  213. Bingham Roundfield

    [12:59] MySpace, which could and would have never used employees to create it’s chief product, does not.

  214. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [12:59] Aaah

  215. Second Life

    [12:59] starcomber Vig wonders to which extent LL is implementing that re the help system

  216. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [12:59] That is a very important distinction, I think!

    [12:59] mm hmm starcomber

  217. Bingham Roundfield

    [12:59] of course, this can get messy.

    [13:00] what about blog providers? how different are they from a newspaper model?

  218. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [13:00] so technically, "Second Life" the product is not TRUE crowdsourcing, although many parts of it are (in the sense that LL did not hire more designers to do content, but got residents to do it for them instead)

  219. Bingham Roundfield

    [13:00] hmmm

  220. SignpostMarv Martin

    [13:00] Second Life is a platform, and people do crowdsourcing on the platform

    [13:00] not everyone, but some people

  221. Grace McDunnough

    [13:00] Bingham, I’s like to know if you’ve considere a different perspective on crowd sourcing with respect to innovation — that is, getting the consumer to actually develop new product ideas.

    [13:01] *I’d

  222. Bingham Roundfield

    [13:01] i’ve always thought of SL as pretty pure crowdsourcing. LL could have gone the route of dumping $50 – $100 million into game development, hiring a huge staff of developers and designers and then hoping to create compelling enough content for people to co

    [13:02] to come … instead they just threw up an infrastructure and said, we leave it to you.

  223. Aliasi Stonebender

    [13:02] I think that’s the wrong way to look at it.

  224. SignpostMarv Martin

    [13:02] cough

    [13:02] game development ?

  225. Aliasi Stonebender

    [13:02] It’s like looking at the World Wide Web as ‘crowdsourcing’.

  226. Bingham Roundfield

    [13:02] World of Warcraft and SL make for interesting comparisons in this regard

  227. Aliasi Stonebender

    [13:02] Not individual companies USING the Web, but the Web itself in toto.

  228. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [13:02] Hmm good argument

  229. SignpostMarv Martin

    [13:02] dude, make your mind up whether or not you’re going to call SL a game *points to your blog

  230. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [13:02] But there is not really "an organisation" behind the World-Wide Web

  231. starcomber Vig

    [13:02] tricky

  232. Aliasi Stonebender

    [13:03] At what point is it a fancy buzzword, and at what point is it simply people fulfilling their wants and desires naturally?

    [13:03] *shrug* Then the Internet at large, which at least USED to be primarily a couple of major organizations.

  233. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [13:03] Oh! I would argue, Aliasi, that the issue here is if a *company* uses this model to provide products and services.

    [13:03] (company, or organisation)

    [13:03] If the users by themselves do it,

    [13:04] on their own I mean,

    [13:04] I would probably argue that it’s not "crowdsourcing"

  234. starcomber Vig

    [13:04] you are eliminating one of the endpoints here Gwyn

    [13:04] so is not

  235. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [13:04] but… very likely, something akin to "open source projects", which emerge "spontaneously" and very often have "nobody" behind them

  236. Bingham Roundfield

    [13:04] not so tricky … SL was started by a single organizztion we recognize as a company, which continues to control it.

  237. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [13:05] Exactly.

  238. starcomber Vig

    [13:05] in fact the infrastructure is still (and will continue to be) pretty centralized

  239. Bingham Roundfield

    [13:05] but i’ll toss out a larger point: crowdsourcing is being widely mis-used

  240. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [13:05] oooh how so? 🙂

  241. Poinky Malaprop

    [13:05] I think the flip side to this is whether individual can leave the traditional employment model and earn a living by contributing to dozens (or hundreds) of crowdsourcing projects

  242. Aliasi Stonebender

    [13:05] OTOH, things like libSL and LL’s continued desire to eventually open up SL make me think there’s a blurry line there.

  243. Bingham Roundfield

    [13:05] just not in the case of SL, imho

  244. SignpostMarv Martin

    [13:05] Linden Lab are to SL as the DoD is to ARPAnet

  245. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [13:06] Good point, Poinky

  246. starcomber Vig

    [13:06] lol

  247. Aliasi Stonebender

    [13:06] Since LL often derives no direct benefit.

  248. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [13:06] and hmm Marv ? we wish that to be true in the future, but right now, Second Life is Linden Lab’s core business.

  249. Bingham Roundfield

    [13:06] Aliasi … true enough. it COULD get blurry, but doesn’t seem like it is yet.

    [13:06] i’ve thought about this because the metaverse is really more or a new continent in its way.

  250. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [13:07] hehe

  251. Bingham Roundfield

    [13:07] and not simply one company’s propeerty

    [13:07] but that’s why the question of how SLers are compensated, and the degree to which they can help govern are very important issues.

    [13:07] and important in other crowdsourcing models as well.

  252. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [13:08] Ok hmm we’re over our hour now.

  253. Ashcroft Burnham

    [13:08] Could LL one day make money primarily by providing services *in* S:?

    [13:08] SL?

  254. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [13:08] While I’d be glad to stay around for longer, I’m not sure if Bingham is able to do so 🙂

  255. SignpostMarv Martin

    [13:08] hell no

  256. Aliasi Stonebender

    [13:08] In SL’s case in particular, I’d note LL only makes money from (a) premium accounts and (b) private sims.

  257. SignpostMarv Martin

    [13:08] hah

    [13:08] the residents’ work is better than theirs

  258. Rez Menoptra

    [13:08] agreed, marv

  259. Aliasi Stonebender

    [13:08] oh, and (c) Lindex.

  260. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [13:08] So should we go on for a bit longer??

  261. Something Something

    [13:08] Aliasi: LL also makes a surprising amount of money from L$10 uploads

  262. starcomber Vig

    [13:08] sure

  263. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [13:08] Bingham, how is your availability?

  264. Bingham Roundfield

    [13:09] i’m afraid i do have to run …

  265. SignpostMarv Martin

    [13:09] that’s why they have the Residents make bids for InfoHubs

    [13:09] and for the SLRR stations

  266. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [13:09] Ok. So hmm

  267. Rez Menoptra

    [13:09] well, ty for coming, bingham

  268. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [13:09] let me just thank Bingham for having come here today.

    [13:09] You have some links and pointers to both his blog and some references

  269. Poinky Malaprop

    [13:09] yes, thanks bingham!

  270. Resident B

    [13:09] Publication permission denied.

  271. Bingham Roundfield

    [13:09] but i’d just like to say, i really appreciate the spirit of the debate here.

  272. Aliasi Stonebender

    [13:09] Something: They make jack shit from L$10 uploads.

  273. starcomber Vig

    [13:09] than you Bingham

  274. Resident B

    [13:09] Publication permission denied.

  275. Latonia Lambert

    [13:09] thank you for finding time to come and talk to us

  276. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [13:09] Then, of course, I should thank *you* all for coming!

  277. Bingham Roundfield

    [13:09] it’s a great forum

  278. SignpostMarv Martin

    [13:10] I’m hoping Poinky has a log ready for me to publish 😛

  279. Aliasi Stonebender

    [13:10] The L$ is worth nothing to Linden Lab.

  280. Something Something

    [13:10] Aliasi: nope, they make quite a bit… I’ll look up the references

  281. Rez Menoptra

    [13:10] they make all of my stipend and more a week on uploads from me, alasi

  282. Aliasi Stonebender

    [13:10] No, Something.

  283. SignpostMarv Martin

    [13:10] Philip stated himself that the Residents are making profit, and Linden Lab aren’t

  284. Bingham Roundfield

    [13:10] and i’m interested in tackling these questions on my blog if anyone wants to come and heckle me there.

  285. Aliasi Stonebender

    [13:10] They make US$ from the Lindex sales which they happen to tie to sinks such as L$10 uploads.

  286. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [13:10] hehe yes ? http://www.crowdsourcing.com (shameless plug!!)

  287. Something Something

    [13:10] I believe Philip Linden mentioned it in an audio interview with Adam Reuters, and the Economic Statistics page may also bear it out

  288. Bingham Roundfield

    [13:10] thanks, Gwyn, and thank you all for coming …

  289. Aliasi Stonebender

    [13:10] this is not the same thing as making money FROM the uploads.

  290. SignpostMarv Martin

    [13:10] check your IMs plz Bingham

  291. Something Something

    [13:10] Well, that’s a technicality

  292. Aliasi Stonebender

    [13:11] It’s not, Something.

  293. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [13:11] Thanks also to Poinky and the Kuurian Expedition in Second Life for organising these events ? people, make sure you look them up.

  294. Aliasi Stonebender

    [13:11] They don’t *have* to tie their sales to the sinks.

  295. Something Something

    [13:11] Every L$ that is "sunk" means that they can print another L$ to sell on Lindex

  296. Aliasi Stonebender

    [13:11] They do so purely as an economy-control measure.

  297. Something Something

    [13:11] without creating inflation

  298. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [13:11] Ok. Is it time for throwing the audience to the lions? 😀

  299. Poinky Malaprop

    [13:11] thanks all for coming – we’ll try to get a transcript out as soon as possible

  300. starcomber Vig

    [13:11] bring em on

  301. Ashcroft Burnham

    [13:11] Lions! 😀

  302. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [13:11] hehe

  303. Second Life

    [13:11] Multi Gadget v1.49.3 by Timeless Prototype

  304. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [13:12] haha

  305. Rez Menoptra

    [13:12] whaaa

  306. Grace McDunnough

    [13:12] Singpost, you are crazy

  307. starcomber Vig

    [13:12] feed the cats

  308. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [13:12] Yes 🙂

  309. starcomber Vig

    [13:12] lol

  310. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [13:12] oooh lions!

  311. Aliasi Stonebender

    [13:12] rawr

  312. starcomber Vig

    [13:12] ehi take pics

  313. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [13:12] here kitty kitty kitty

    [13:13] No, Ashcroft, but I can *return* them 🙂

    [13:13] yay let’s crash this sim!

  314. Delia Lake

    [13:13] oops! lions. gladi can fly

  315. Resident A

    [13:13] Publication permission denied.

  316. Aliasi Stonebender

    [13:13] bah!

  317. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [13:13] actually hmm I wonder how bad was the lag in the audience?

  318. Resident A

    [13:13] Publication permission denied.

  319. Rez Menoptra

    [13:13] haha scope

  320. SignpostMarv Martin

    [13:13] had some chat bubbles

  321. Resident A

    [13:13] Publication permission denied.

  322. Rez Menoptra

    [13:14] i heary ou

    [13:14] hey hey

  323. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [13:14] Aye, good work, Scope, and thanks for coming!

  324. Delia Lake

    [13:14] thanks, Gwyneth

  325. Antonius Camus

    [13:14] sometimes a bit of chat lag

  326. Resident A

    [13:14] Publication permission denied.

  327. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [13:14] thanks for coming, and for your good questions, Delia!

  328. Rez Menoptra

    [13:14] yeah, for sure

  329. Resident A

    [13:14] Publication permission denied.

  330. Delia Lake

    [13:14] yes

  331. Rez Menoptra

    [13:14] that’s gonna be a good one

  332. Poinky Malaprop

    [13:14] ending transcript logging

  333. Rez Menoptra

    [13:14] cool

    [13:14] catch you later

  334. starcomber Vig

    [13:14] see ya

  335. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    [13:14] hehe ty Poinky!

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