Sitearm Madonna – USC Center on Public Diplomacy: Public Diplomacy and Virtual Worlds Project

NOTE: While every effort has been made to ensure that this transcript made it statefully out of Second Life, a bug in SL’s handling of UTF-8 characters required manual clean-up of the transcript so it didn’t have spatterings of weird characters in it. However, any difference between the original transcript and this one should be so minor you wouldn’t notice ๐Ÿ˜€

  1. Poinky Malaprop

    [12:35] ok, let’s start

    [12:36] Welcome everyone

    [12:36] to another exciting presentation

  2. Sitearm Madonna

    [12:36] if you want to monitor the song names here is the browser link:

  3. Poinky Malaprop

    [12:36] By Sitearm Madonna of USC’s Annenberg Institute

  4. Sitearm Madonna

    [12:36] (look only at the bottom "current song:" title)

  5. Poinky Malaprop

    [12:36] I actually don’t know much about this project, depsite what Frank says ๐Ÿ™‚

    [12:36] so I’m hoping to learn a lot

  6. Sitearm Madonna

    [12:36] Yay!

  7. Poinky Malaprop

    [12:36] As you may have noticed

    [12:36] I’m wearing a fancy hat

    [12:37] which is designed to get peoples permission to have their comments

  8. Second Life

    [12:37] beladona Memorial noticed

  9. Poinky Malaprop

    [12:37] included in the published transcript

    [12:37] If you clikc the green ring, you give permission

    [12:37] if you click the red, you deny permission, and your comments will not be included

    [12:37] if you haven’t permitted or denied

    [12:37] and you speak

    [12:38] you should get a dialog box asking you for permission

    [12:38] if this starts misbehvaing during the talk

    [12:38] let me know, and II’ll turn it off

    [12:38] so without further ado,

  10. Sitearm Madonna

    [12:38] @Poinky.. please have a seat

  11. Poinky Malaprop

    [12:38] I present

    [12:38] Sitearm Madonna

  12. Sitearm Madonna

    [12:38] or you shall be left o..O

    [12:38] ๐Ÿ™‚ ty !

    [12:38] ok bear with us

    [12:38] as we move the theatire

  13. Pham Neutra

    [12:39] ๐Ÿ™‚

  14. Sitearm Madonna

    [12:39] whew

    [12:39] good job all !

    [12:39] Yay!

  15. Zoe Visconti

    [12:39] nice landing ๐Ÿ™‚

  16. Poinky Malaprop

    [12:39] good thing I held on to my hatt

  17. Sitearm Madonna

    [12:39] Hello all! I am pleased to be with you today ๐Ÿ™‚

    [12:40] Our topic is "City Building in Virtual Reality"

  18. Frank Koolhaas

    [12:40] wonderful!

  19. Sitearm Madonna

    [12:40] Let me address a few logistics items first:

    [12:40] 1. I am going to present in Chat

    [12:40] 2. I am going to show slides as I present ร‚$(H a(Bnd I will try to allow time for them to rezz for you

    [12:40] 3. I will be playing City Building Music and a few selected sound files as we listen ๐Ÿ™‚ The themes are Greece, China, Rome and Egypt.

    [12:40] 4. I would like to introduce two fellow City Building friends of mine ร‚$(H D(Bane Benford and Schmophitt Neruda

  20. beladona Memorial

    [12:41] /c

  21. Sitearm Madonna

    [12:41] 5. In the Walkthrough Demo we will have a chance for questions and discussion as we move through the builds

    [12:41] . First a disclaimer — "city building in virtual reality" is NOT a reality yet

    [12:41] . My goal is to present this concept for discussion and implementation over time

    [12:41] . I am here at Kuurian Expedition because Poinky Malaprop come to our first city building event here on Annenberg Island

    [12:41] . So I figure there is something in this concept that engages other’s attention as it does mine ๐Ÿ™‚

    [12:42] . Here is our timeline — present the concept, show two demos, then discuss

    [12:42] "about an hour , including discussion.. will get you out on time

    [12:42] . I invite you to look over the rest of the island at the end of the talk if you have not been here before ๐Ÿ™‚

    [12:42] . A brief word about my background

    [12:42] . I am a listed LL developer

    [12:43] . My key roles are to consult and expedite selected Second Life Virtual Worlds Projects ๐Ÿ™‚

    [12:43] . Today we want to present the concept of city building in virtual reality

    [12:43] . And enroll those of you who are interested in helping us work out how to do it in Second Life ๐Ÿ™‚

    [12:43] . To reach these goals we will understand the purpose of the sim we are in and why it is an appropriate host for this topic

    [12:44] . We will also look at what defines the "genre" of a city building computer game and how it might extend into a virtual reality platform

    [12:44] . We will be looking at some builds today but there is also a web links notecard handout I will provide ๐Ÿ™‚

    [12:44] . The sim we are in is Annenberg Island owned by the University of Southern California

    [12:44] . The Center on Diplomacy runs a unique project called "Public Diplomacy and Virtual Worlds"

    [12:45] . This sim is therefore what I call a Concept Sim. It’s purpose is to present information in an engaging manner.

    [12:45] . It’s mission is to keep exploring (!) how virtual worlds can help better connect people

    [12:45] (get it "explore" ๐Ÿ™‚

    [12:45] *coff* sorry

  22. totally Vavoom

    [12:45] ๐Ÿ˜‰

  23. Sitearm Madonna

    [12:45] . What is a city building game?

    [12:45] . Well the very first was SimCity

    [12:46] . Bottom line — you are the city planner — and you make the decisions where to invest workforce and finance to meet basic needs of your citizens

    [12:46] . The computer runs the citizens for you

    [12:46] . The fascination of a good city building game is in the combination of its logical intricacy and its people orientation

    [12:46] hi IN.. have a seat ๐Ÿ™‚

    [12:46] . You have to juggle many factors all at once. We will see some examples in a minute.

    [12:47] . Working to build a working city with satisfied citizens and high quality of life can be Very addicting o..O ๐Ÿ™‚

    [12:47] . Now let’s discuss city building as it might be done in virtual reality

    [12:47] . What would City Building in Virtual Reality look like if we had it?

    [12:47] . In current city building games you don’t get to BE one of your citizens, you don’t get to WALK IN the city you have created ๐Ÿ˜ฆ

    [12:48] . Therefore, in a virtual reality city builder, the City Planner should be able to be one of her characters, "in world" , "in avatar" ๐Ÿ™‚

    [12:48] . In current city building games, you interact with computer City Planners for trade and economic cooperation, or war and economic competition.

  24. Second Life

    [12:48] Poinky Malaprop sings “What if god was one of us..?”

  25. Sitearm Madonna

    [12:48] @Poinky ๐Ÿ˜‰

  26. totally Vavoom

    [12:48] just a slob like one of us!! TV warbles!

  27. Sitearm Madonna

    [12:48] . Therefore, in virtual reality city builder, the City Planners should be able to interact online with other, live City Planners.

    [12:49] . Perhaps even walk your avatar in Their cities as well as yours ๐Ÿ™‚

    [12:49] . Finally, a virtual reality city builder should be able to run 24.7 (barring Update Wednesdays ๐Ÿ˜‰ ).

    [12:49] . Why? Because cities evolve and grow and trade whether the City Planner is awake and online or not ๐Ÿ˜‰

    [12:50] . City Building in virtual reality sounds abstractร‚,T (Bwhy bother with it? ๐Ÿ™‚

    [12:50] . First, current city builders are avid to walk IN their cities as one of their citizens.

    [12:50] . The newest games use movable 3D game engines instead of fixed Isometric "god’s eye" views.

    [12:50] . This has just served to whet gamers’ appetites even more

    [12:50] . Second, city building embeds major assumptions about economics and social dynamics.

    [12:51] . As in any simulation you learn a LOT from seeing how the assumptions play out.

    [12:51] . And thirdร‚,T (Bit’s FUN! ๐Ÿ™‚

  28. Cara Fei

    [12:51] yeah

  29. Sitearm Madonna

    [12:51] . Are we already doing city building in virtual reality?

    [12:51] . Short answer — no

    [12:51] . Long answer — bits and pieces are coming into play

    [12:52] Here is a suggested Checklist for City Building in Virtual Reality

    [12:52] . It must have economics — costs to cover, income to earn, growth to fund

    [12:52] . It must have architecture — functional fun structures to do things in

    [12:52] . It must have demographics — model behavior cos people are Not robots

    [12:52] . And it must be rich enough to be fun and engaging

    [12:53] . Now I would like to direct your attention to the Scale Model city to the left of the slide screen

    [12:53] . In this simple city builder model we start HERE with the one essential, food, represented here by a wheat field and the Farmer’s Barn ๐Ÿ™‚

    [12:53] . Over HERE we have another resource, Clay, with the Potter’s Shed located next to it

    [12:54] . Over HERE we have a vital element, a School

    [12:54] . Over HERE we have a Clinic for the doctor to treat patients in

    [12:54] . And finally HERE we have a Warehouse where goods are stored for exchange. This represents Mediation or Government ๐Ÿ™‚

    [12:55] . Looking back now at the slide display, here is a display of the economic flow of skills between those five structures we just looked at

    [12:55] . Farmer exchanges Wheat for services such as instruction and health care

    [12:55] . Potter makes useful pots to put things in, in exchange for Wheat and other services

    [12:55] hi Diesel.. have a seat ๐Ÿ™‚

    [12:56] . A city builder must model the exchange of skills because advanced societies develop only when skills can be specialized and deepened

    [12:56] . Here on the slide display is a list of the structures we looked at in the scale model

    [12:56] . Notice that people need a place to LIVE in as well as WORK in ๐Ÿ™‚

    [12:56] . And we have not even addressed entertainment or spirituality in this simple model ๐Ÿ™‚

    [12:57] . Finally, on this slide, we hint at the demographics or people side of what a city builder must model

    [12:57] . Population and available workforce contrast with workforce demand (underemployment is not good nor is not having enough people for the work needed)

    [12:57] . Family relationships have been modeled in some city builders — Dad starts as a farmer but Daughter becomes a doctor, for example ๐Ÿ™‚

    [12:58] . The intangible aspects of demographics are included in city builders as well, including morale and aesthetics

    [12:58] . Before we go to the walkthrough portion of today’s talk, here are some web resources that provide more information on city building

    [12:58] . These links are available on a notecard as well

    [12:59] Frank might you hand it out for me ๐Ÿ™‚ ?

  30. Frank Koolhaas

    [12:59] yes

  31. Sitearm Madonna

    [12:59] ok we will get the notecard to you before end of the talk

    [12:59] . Now on to the walkthrough demo

  32. Frank Koolhaas

    [12:59] ๐Ÿ™‚

  33. Sitearm Madonna

    [12:59] please stay fully Seated ๐Ÿ™‚

  34. Second Life

    [13:00] beladona Memorial holds on

  35. Sitearm Madonna

    [13:00] whew ! ๐Ÿ™‚

    [13:00] ok before we deplane

    [13:00] we are going to walk you around this build

  36. Poinky Malaprop

    [13:00] some people’s prim hair seems to have blown off

  37. Sitearm Madonna

    [13:00] and show some of the structures

    [13:01] heh

    [13:01] so follow me and Dane to your RIGHT to the Bust Garden first stop

    [13:01] ignore the Time Dilation

    [13:01] this Bust Garden was made by Schmophitt Neruda

    [13:02] and shows the name of the game we are demoing "Caesar IV"

    [13:02] and the studio "Tilted Mill:"

    [13:02] it is ALso an "aesthetic structure"

    [13:02] when you put a garden like this in your city

    [13:02] it increases the Appeal and Value of teh land

    [13:02] and increases taxes you can levy ๐Ÿ™‚

  38. Vincent Doctorow

    [13:03] mm, taxes.

  39. Sitearm Madonna

    [13:03] ok NEXT up the Fountain.. follow me ๐Ÿ™‚

    [13:03] this FOuntain is also by Schmophitt

    [13:03] it is even higher appeal

    [13:03] I should mention these builds were done from images before the game even came out

    [13:04] so again Bust Garden and FOuntain are about Aesthetics and Appeal

    [13:04] over HERE is an Obelish

  40. Poinky Malaprop

    [13:04] which game? did you mention it?

  41. Sitearm Madonna

    [13:04] Obelisk

    [13:04] @POinky "Caesar IV"

    [13:04] the obelish has Egyptian Hieroglypics

    [13:04] for "Tilted Mill" ๐Ÿ™‚

    [13:04] in the Game it represents a Military Victory

    [13:05] yes you can have military in city builders too BUT

    [13:05] you have to pay for it and you have to keep the citizens satisifed about it

    [13:05] heh.. sound famillar ?

    [13:05] ok these Displays

    [13:05] show different play styles from people all around the world that are brought together by the game

    [13:06] each of the Names is a registrant in Tilted Mill forums

  42. Decka Mah

    [13:06] /hug Diesel Tuck

  43. Sitearm Madonna

    [13:06] and Tilted Mill is where I, Schmophitt and Dane found out about Second Life

  44. Second Life

    [13:06] Decka gives Diesel a big hug.

  45. Sitearm Madonna

    [13:06] these were done using the free downloadable demo

  46. Second Life

    [13:06] Dane Benford nods

  47. Sitearm Madonna

    [13:06] you can get the web link from one of the yellow signs

    [13:07] ok now we will go to the BIG BUILDS ๐Ÿ™‚

  48. Frank Koolhaas

    [13:07] very nice

  49. Sitearm Madonna

    [13:07] follow me to the Market now please

    [13:07] the Market has two key purposes

    [13:08] . supplies the citizens with goods (food, pots in our example)

    [13:08] and . venue for trade with other cities

    [13:08] to earn income for growth

    [13:08] the tables are the sales area

    [13:08] the brick area is storage for trade

    [13:08] Dane here did this entire Market from flat images

    [13:08] on the tables

    [13:09] some of us city builders have been learning how to make goods to sell

    [13:09] but frankly Dane has us beat o..O

  50. Dane Benford

    [13:09] :p

  51. Sitearm Madonna

    [13:09] (Dane chime in anytime ๐Ÿ˜‰

    [13:09] ok next the WINERY !

  52. Dane Benford

    [13:09] btw all the thinks on the tables are free to copy

    [13:09] things*

  53. Sitearm Madonna

    [13:10] the WInery is an example of 1. Industyr, and 2. Luxury Good

  54. Second Life

    [13:10] Autopilot canceled

  55. Sitearm Madonna

    [13:10] here is Dane’s newest, a Wine Press

    [13:10] up on the second level, amphorae in racks

    [13:10] and if you saw them, on the outside were large Wine Casks

    [13:10] all custom work by Dane

    [13:10] who is an artist in real life

    [13:10] Dane, comments? ๐Ÿ™‚

  56. Poinky Malaprop

    [13:11] so.. I’m not sure I get what you’re setting up? Will these be pieces for players to use in the city building game?

  57. Dane Benford

    [13:11] all done last night in a panic I will add

  58. Sitearm Madonna

    [13:11] ah let’s go to the last build Poinky

  59. Poinky Malaprop

    [13:11] or are users supposed to build these things?

  60. Sitearm Madonna

    [13:11] and take questions there

    [13:11] lead the way to the Temple

    [13:11] tight quarters

  61. Dane Benford

    [13:11] mouselock helps

  62. Second Life

    [13:11] Autopilot canceled

  63. Sitearm Madonna

    [13:12] ok while people look inside I will be happy to take questions and discuss

  64. Frank Koolhaas

    [13:12] very intteresting

  65. Vincent Doctorow

    [13:12] Man, I came late.

    [13:12] Is this a USC program?

  66. Sitearm Madonna

    [13:12] the inside is really nice ๐Ÿ™‚

  67. Grace McDunnough

    [13:13] PM, I am making you a suit of armor to replace that HAT!

  68. Vincent Doctorow

    [13:13] I’m sorry I came a little late.

  69. Sitearm Madonna

    [13:13] np ๐Ÿ™‚

  70. Poinky Malaprop

    [13:13] so, can you clarify the vision? who will the players be?scity planners and also citizens?

  71. Vincent Doctorow

    [13:13] In a nut shell, what’re you guys doing?

  72. Sitearm Madonna

    [13:14] we said there were several criteria for a City Builder in Virtual Reality

    [13:14] 1. Economics, 2. Architecture, 3. Demographics

    [13:14] for ARchitecture need to be able to walk in it

    [13:14] so we have done that so far

    [13:15] we have several model cities in SL now of course

  73. Frank Koolhaas

    [13:15] a question: what must be different from real urban planning here?

  74. Sitearm Madonna

    [13:15] Parioli Rome for example

    [13:15] Dublin Ireland

    [13:15] but

    [13:15] having a City Planner in charge of Economics

    [13:15] having Citizens and Demographics

    [13:15] those are NOT in SL

  75. Cara Fei

    [13:16] in SL we dont need infrastructure

  76. Frank Koolhaas

    [13:16] Site, you don’t think that a RL urban planner would change his world if he managed it?

  77. Sitearm Madonna

    [13:16] ๐Ÿ™‚

    [13:16] well here’s the thing ..

    [13:16] in a realistically modeled city we’d not be flying about

  78. totally Vavoom

    [13:16] lol!

  79. Sitearm Madonna

    [13:17] and the carts or (or cars) would truly have to abide by physics

    [13:17] I remember in SimCity the first

    [13:17] the difference between adding Rail vs. More Roads

    [13:17] More Roads in the model always made traffic jams

    [13:17] Rail cost a LOT but where it went in there were no more jams

    [13:17] people ARgued with that economic assumption

    [13:18] also SimCity said

    [13:18] if you raise taxes TOO much people will leave

    [13:18] people argued with that too

    [13:18] but um.. it seems to have proved out as accurate ๐Ÿ™‚

  80. William Bunavad

    [13:18] it was a basic model, if I may interfect.

  81. Dane Benford

    [13:18] people seem to move where the taxes are lower I think

  82. Sitearm Madonna

    [13:18] surely William

  83. Frank Koolhaas

    [13:18] another thing: here one can go from a place to another with tp…

  84. Sitearm Madonna

    [13:19] this is the free for all, I mean "discussion" part now ๐Ÿ™‚

  85. Frank Koolhaas

    [13:19] we don’have many roads, many distance…

  86. beladona Memorial

    [13:19] but then they demand the services that can only be funded by taxes

  87. Frank Koolhaas

    [13:19] would it be better to have?

  88. William Bunavad

    [13:19] tp is alright, but it’s not the same as reality. infrastructure is a way of limiting things. here you can jam as many people as you want into a single space.

  89. Cara Fei

    [13:19] roads in Sl are annoying

  90. William Bunavad

    [13:19] perhaps because they’re redundant if you can fly.

  91. Sitearm Madonna

    [13:19] yes

  92. Cara Fei

    [13:19] they are ugly

  93. Frank Koolhaas

    [13:19] yes, but you don’t experience the travel

  94. Cara Fei

    [13:20] and redundant

  95. totally Vavoom

    [13:20] I guess I don’t see the point of creating a RL sceanrio here except for learning purposes

  96. Sitearm Madonna

    [13:20] have any of you sailed in SL ?

  97. Grace McDunnough

    [13:20] Yes

  98. Frank Koolhaas

    [13:20] no

  99. Cara Fei

    [13:20] yes

  100. Takver Twin

    [13:20] yes

  101. Sitearm Madonna

    [13:20] did yo uenjoy it Grace , Tak ?

  102. totally Vavoom

    [13:20] no

  103. Puglet Dancer

    [13:20] yes

  104. Grace McDunnough

    [13:20] I do.

  105. Sitearm Madonna

    [13:20] I am astonished how nice it feels!

  106. Takver Twin

    [13:20] not especially

  107. Grace McDunnough

    [13:20] I also enjot skydiving ๐Ÿ˜‰

  108. beladona Memorial

    [13:20] yes

  109. Cara Fei

    [13:20] bt a road cuts nature and asthestics

  110. totally Vavoom

    [13:20] Is the point then that is world allows us to do things that we may not in real life?

  111. beladona Memorial

    [13:21] altho sometimes there are problems when you cross sim lines

  112. Sitearm Madonna

    [13:21] let me address Vavoom’s comment

    [13:21] "[13:20] totally Vavoom: I guess I don’t see the point of creating a RL sceanrio here except for learning purposes"

  113. Vincent Doctorow

    [13:21] Well there’s a whole discussion about two different strains of thought in Second Life, where some want to import stuff from the real life and others want to make a whole different world.

    [13:21] It just depends on the person.

    [13:21] Some people want to see famliar stuff.

    [13:21] I for one like the roads

  114. Sitearm Madonna

    [13:21] the one thing SL has going for it is

  115. Vincent Doctorow

    [13:21] If they’re done right

  116. Sitearm Madonna

    [13:21] let’s face it, it is 3D walkthroughable

    [13:21] but it has no game engine add on

  117. totally Vavoom

    [13:21] I agree with that, that some want familiar stuff and others don’t

  118. Sitearm Madonna

    [13:22] we would need to put two different things together

    [13:22] the Game Engine of Caesar IV with the 3D Walkthrough Engine of Second Life

  119. totally Vavoom

    [13:22] and the purpose or goal of that is?

  120. Vincent Doctorow

    [13:22] The SL stuff needs to go open source then.

  121. Sitearm Madonna

    [13:22] and that is not going to happen this year or next

  122. William Bunavad

    [13:22] well, the physics model exists… that’s all yo ureally need. some limits can be placed on using ‘infrastrcture’ if you wish.

  123. Grace McDunnough

    [13:22] Can you tell us specifically what you mean by "game engine"

  124. Sitearm Madonna

    [13:23] @totally – because in modeling economic cooperation and competition people learn new ways to work together

  125. William Bunavad

    [13:23] I hear that it will become open once a protocol is stabilized.

  126. Sitearm Madonna

    [13:23] which is a goal of mine for one

    [13:23] and of the annenberg project for another

    [13:23] ๐Ÿ™‚

  127. totally Vavoom

    [13:23] aha! ok, I see where you are going with this now, I think :-). thanks!

  128. Vincent Doctorow

    [13:23] Does the annenberg project have a website.

  129. Sitearm Madonna

    [13:23] surely ๐Ÿ™‚

    [13:23] @Vincent yes

  130. Vincent Doctorow

    [13:23] =D can I have the link please

    [13:23] sorry if you gave it earlier.

    [13:23] I was at work.

    [13:23] At USC incidentally =D

  131. totally Vavoom

    [13:23] so the goal is to study how people connect and collaborate via a gaming model in a virtual world?

  132. William Bunavad

    [13:24] isn’t the economix cooperation and competition implicit in SL b/c of the real people involved in the world?

  133. Frank Koolhaas

    [13:24] sorry

  134. Cara Fei

    [13:24] thx

  135. William Bunavad

    [13:24] perhaps i’m missing something

  136. Second Life

    [13:24] Sitearm Madonna gave you city building information card 1-0.

  137. totally Vavoom

    [13:24] with you, I’m not quite getting the point here

  138. Sitearm Madonna

    [13:24] ok if I did taht right

    [13:24] you all have

  139. beladona Memorial

    [13:24] ty Frank

  140. Frank Koolhaas

    [13:24] ๐Ÿ™‚

  141. Sitearm Madonna

    [13:24] "[13:20] totally Vavoom: I guess I don’t see the point of creating a RL sceanrio here except for learning purposes"

  142. Puglet Dancer

    [13:24] Thanks Frank

  143. Cara Fei

    [13:25] what’s the point you want to make?

  144. Vincent Doctorow

    [13:25] Haha, such open ended questions.

  145. Sitearm Madonna

    [13:25] well I will recap my two points for us

    [13:26] . Today we want to present the concept of city building in virtual reality

    [13:26] . And enroll those of you who are interested in helping us work out how to do it in Second Life ๐Ÿ™‚

    [13:26] and if it does not interest you per se there may yet be a piece that does

    [13:26] for example Frank here loves the concept

  146. William Bunavad

    [13:26] i see, the point is to have the computer run citizens FOR you… like robots.

  147. Sitearm Madonna

    [13:26] of "living architecture"

    [13:26] and I maintain that "living architecure"

    [13:26] is the architecture that people LIVE in ๐Ÿ˜‰

    [13:27] (but it has other interpretations too)

  148. Vincent Doctorow

    [13:27] how is this different from other places where cities have been built and people are under a form of government

    [13:27] like Neufreistadt

    [13:27] Which comes to mind

  149. Sitearm Madonna

    [13:27] oh that is a good question

    [13:27] can Neufreistadt be considered a city builder ๐Ÿ™‚

  150. Vincent Doctorow

    [13:27] =D yeah

  151. Sitearm Madonna

    [13:28] one of the learnings of city builders is "juggling many factors"

    [13:28] including economics and people

    [13:28] a balancing act

    [13:28] are the folks in Neufrie thingie learning from it ๐Ÿ™‚

    [13:29] and are they having fun yet ๐Ÿ™‚

  152. Vincent Doctorow

    [13:29] Which is funny pertinent because Neufreistadt is the second manifestation; the first one sort of got messed up by politics

  153. Cara Fei

    [13:29] dunno about neufreistadt

  154. Poinky Malaprop

    [13:29] so, they could have used the game to try things out before hand?

  155. Sitearm Madonna

    [13:29] yes

  156. Cara Fei

    [13:29] dunno that place, honestly but what does it mean for SL?

    [13:30] for us?

  157. Poinky Malaprop

    [13:30] so, I’m still trying to understand whether there will be some players that are "planners" and others that are just citizens?

  158. Vincent Doctorow

    [13:30] It means that there can be an internal government

    [13:30] SL right now is sort of anarchic/Linden dictatorship

  159. Sitearm Madonna

    [13:30] @Poinky short answer is start as city planners

    [13:30] but there is an interesting play on that

    [13:30] in the Egypt game

    [13:31] citizens are free to come or leave

  160. Vincent Doctorow

    [13:31] Well; analogously at Neufreistadt there’s a "council" of people who run things and then there are tenants who are "just citizens", no?

  161. Sitearm Madonna

    [13:31] they can forage and feed themselves

    [13:31] so the leader, you, Pharoah have to atTRAct them to wanna make a city with you

  162. Vincent Doctorow

    [13:31] How about the Gorean roleplayers, are they city builders?

  163. Sitearm Madonna

    [13:31] and what you have to attract is what we called "ability to develop specialized skills"

  164. Vincent Doctorow

    [13:31] There are several competing Gorean sims or "cieties"

    [13:31] They have to attract citizens

    [13:32] or risk losing them to other sims

  165. Sitearm Madonna

    [13:32] yes

    [13:32] in fact most sims in SL seem to be empthy

  166. Dane Benford

    [13:32] I belive that game was considered a breakthrough sitearm the egyptian one

  167. Poinky Malaprop

    [13:32] but before you get to that point, would you have robot citizens?

  168. Cara Fei

    [13:32] maybe the players of those games like hierachies?

  169. Sitearm Madonna

    [13:32] heh why not Poinky ?

  170. Poinky Malaprop

    [13:32] hard to script

  171. Cara Fei

    [13:32] maybe it’s more of a psychological phenomenon?

  172. Sitearm Madonna

    [13:32] lordy yes!

  173. William Bunavad

    [13:32] are you proposing buliding cities with real citizens or robots? with people not needing to eat in SL, how would you convince people to work?

  174. Dane Benford

    [13:32] It was the first city builder also called a nurture game by some

  175. Vincent Doctorow

    [13:33] Having robot citizens would make the socities nice and stratified

  176. William Bunavad

    [13:33] are you even talking about city building in SL? (I hope so ๐Ÿ™‚

  177. Vincent Doctorow

    [13:33] you’d have your nobles and tenants – real people – and nice group of slave labor – unquestinooing robot people haha

    [13:33] No I don’t Scope

  178. Poinky Malaprop

    [13:33] until the robot’s turn sentient..

  179. Vincent Doctorow

    [13:33] Har har

  180. Poinky Malaprop

    [13:34] So, you said you wanted to recruit – what’s the plan? What are the tasks ppl can sign up for?

  181. Cara Fei

    [13:34] i personally registered to Sl because it seems like being the only game without hierachies

  182. Vincent Doctorow

    [13:34] Yes, listeners want to know!

    [13:34] But SL culture-wise is so enormlously diverse you can’t say whether or not the system as a whole has or doesn’t have hierarhcies

  183. Sitearm Madonna

    [13:34] oh ack Poinky ๐Ÿ™‚

    [13:35] well the thing Dane and I did so far was work on that simple model economy we showed you on the slides

  184. Vincent Doctorow

    [13:35] there are subcultures that embrace hierarhcies and then there are suspicions of grid-wide hierarchies as well; there are divisions petween people who can script and people who can’t

  185. Sitearm Madonna

    [13:35] and start to discuss if it could be scripted

  186. Cara Fei

    [13:35] ok… the one with the lesser heirarchies *g

  187. Vincent Doctorow

    [13:35] people who can build and people who cna’t

    [13:35] people who produce and people who consume

    [13:35] "feted inner core"

    [13:35] that jazz

  188. Cara Fei

    [13:35] you can still make a happy living here without any skills

  189. Vincent Doctorow

    [13:36] =D I make my happy living without any skills – but spend money doing so

    [13:36] har

  190. Decka Mah

    [13:36] Cara…perhaps it is a game, like life, where the heirarchies ar just not set by the game builder but develop through interaction, chance, relationships

  191. Cara Fei

    [13:36] no, even as basic account

    [13:36] decka: that’s human and depends on the mentality of the player

    [13:36] but it is not system-immanent

  192. Frank Koolhaas

    [13:36] Site, the worlds could represent an utopian vision. Do you think they reflet this?

  193. Vincent Doctorow

    [13:37] it depends on the mentality of the players, plural

  194. Cara Fei

    [13:37] ok

  195. Sitearm Madonna

    [13:37] well FRank

    [13:37] if you look at those 20 displays on the plaza

  196. Decka Mah

    [13:37] Vincent the heirarchies exist in the minds of the players here

  197. Sitearm Madonna

    [13:37] there are some very different looks

  198. Vincent Doctorow

    [13:37] I think all of us, with our computers, coming from post industrial, first world societies, we are naturally going to organize ourselves into hierarchies

  199. Sitearm Madonna

    [13:38] so a city builder lets players design the way THEY see it working

  200. Cara Fei

    [13:38] vince: not me *g

  201. Vincent Doctorow

    [13:38] even the most basica organizing social tool in SL, groups, is about hierarchies

  202. Decka Mah

    [13:38] bye all …got ot go sadly. Thanks

  203. Second Life

    [13:38] Poinky Malaprop clears his throat

  204. William Bunavad

    [13:38] hiercharchy is implicit in the world (and any world), as far as i see it.

  205. Cara Fei

    [13:38] bye decka

  206. Poinky Malaprop

    [13:38] Ok, we’re over time

  207. Vincent Doctorow

    [13:38] Awww.

  208. Poinky Malaprop

    [13:38] so let’s give Sitearm a round of applause

  209. Frank Koolhaas

    [13:38] yes, Site but I think that space, mostly the urban space influences your behavior…

  210. Poinky Malaprop

    [13:38] I’m sure she’s happy to talk more

  211. Vincent Doctorow

    [13:38] Well, Sitearm can you end by telling us what participation oppurtunities we have?

  212. Grace McDunnough

    [13:38] Thanks Sitearm!

  213. Poinky Malaprop

    [13:39] and contact her if you want to help out

  214. Sitearm Madonna

    [13:39] ty ty ๐Ÿ™‚

  215. beladona Memorial

    [13:39] thank you Sitearm

  216. Vincent Doctorow

    [13:39] Hooray

  217. Dane Benford

    [13:39] I myself build lush green cities with asd many gardens as I can fit, where as others build for efficiancy

  218. Vincent Doctorow

    [13:39] Fight On SC!

  219. Cara Fei

    [13:39] good job, sitearm

  220. Vincent Doctorow

    [13:39] o_o;

  221. Frank Koolhaas

    [13:39] bravo!!!!

  222. Takver Twin

    [13:39] thanks

  223. Sitearm Madonna

    [13:39] well re participation I recommend you download the demo and try it out

  224. Frank Koolhaas

    [13:39] thanks

  225. Vincent Doctorow

    [13:39] Mkay.

  226. Frank Koolhaas

    [13:39] wonderful meeting!

  227. Puglet Dancer

    [13:39] Thank you!

  228. Dane Benford

    [13:39] yay

  229. Puglet Dancer

    [13:39] Gave me lots to think about.

  230. Sitearm Madonna

    [13:39] you will either bless me and Dane or curse us ๐Ÿ˜‰

    [13:39] surely

  231. Poinky Malaprop

    [13:39] yes, this was great – I loved the walking tour!

  232. Sitearm Madonna

    [13:39] you are all most welcome

    [13:39] thank you for your generous attention ! ๐Ÿ™‚

  233. Dane Benford

    [13:40] or you could just bless me and curse her;)

  234. Vincent Doctorow

    [13:40] Yeah – in terms of lectures in SL, we need more walking and interactive stuff.

  235. Frank Koolhaas

    [13:40] you are great!

  236. Vincent Doctorow

    [13:40] Less sitting around and making it into an elaborate chatroom

  237. Cara Fei

    [13:40] thank you sitearm for all this effort!

  238. Vincent Doctorow

    [13:40] so this was a nice blueprint for what lectures in SL should be like

    [13:40] =D

  239. Cara Fei

    [13:40] ok vince

  240. Frank Koolhaas

    [13:40] ๐Ÿ™‚

  241. William Bunavad

    [13:40] i like teh garden and temple

  242. Sitearm Madonna

    [13:40] @Vincent ty ๐Ÿ™‚


  1. prokofy said,

    November 1, 2006 at 11:50 pm

    Get rid of the stupid time stamps, they only detract from trying to read it.

  2. SignpostMarv said,

    November 2, 2006 at 9:56 am

    Again, No.

    Use greasemonkey or other form of userscript to apply CSS rules as described in my last response to your complaint.

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