SignpostMarv’s SL Blog

NOTE: While every effort has been made to ensure that this transcript made it statefully out of Second Life, a bug in SL’s handling of UTF-8 characters required manual clean-up of the transcript so it didn’t have spatterings of weird characters in it. However, any difference between the original transcript and this one should be so minor you wouldn’t notice

1. Poinky Malaprop
   

   [12:35] ok, let’s start

   [12:36] Welcome everyone

   [12:36] to another exciting presentation

2. Sitearm Madonna
   

   [12:36] if you want to monitor the song names here is the browser link: http://66.34.54.162:8002

3. Poinky Malaprop
   

   [12:36] By Sitearm Madonna of USC’s Annenberg Institute

4. Sitearm Madonna
   

   [12:36] (look only at the bottom "current song:" title)

5. Poinky Malaprop
   

   [12:36] I actually don’t know much about this project, depsite what Frank says

   [12:36] so I’m hoping to learn a lot

6. Sitearm Madonna
   

   [12:36] Yay!

7. Poinky Malaprop
   

   [12:36] As you may have noticed

   [12:36] I’m wearing a fancy hat

   [12:37] which is designed to get peoples permission to have their comments

8. Second Life
   

   [12:37] beladona Memorial noticed

9. Poinky Malaprop
   

   [12:37] included in the published transcript

   [12:37] If you clikc the green ring, you give permission

   [12:37] if you click the red, you deny permission, and your comments will not be included

   [12:37] if you haven’t permitted or denied

   [12:37] and you speak

   [12:38] you should get a dialog box asking you for permission

   [12:38] if this starts misbehvaing during the talk

   [12:38] let me know, and II’ll turn it off

   [12:38] so without further ado,

10. Sitearm Madonna
    

    [12:38] @Poinky.. please have a seat

11. Poinky Malaprop
    

    [12:38] I present

    [12:38] Sitearm Madonna

12. Sitearm Madonna
    

    [12:38] or you shall be left o..O

    [12:38] ty !

    [12:38] ok bear with us

    [12:38] as we move the theatire

13. Pham Neutra
    

    [12:39]

14. Sitearm Madonna
    

    [12:39] whew

    [12:39] good job all !

    [12:39] Yay!

15. Zoe Visconti
    

    [12:39] nice landing

16. Poinky Malaprop
    

    [12:39] good thing I held on to my hatt

17. Sitearm Madonna
    

    [12:39] Hello all! I am pleased to be with you today

    [12:40] Our topic is "City Building in Virtual Reality"

18. Frank Koolhaas
    

    [12:40] wonderful!

19. Sitearm Madonna
    

    [12:40] Let me address a few logistics items first:

    [12:40] 1. I am going to present in Chat

    [12:40] 2. I am going to show slides as I present Â$(H a(Bnd I will try to allow time for them to rezz for you

    [12:40] 3. I will be playing City Building Music and a few selected sound files as we listen The themes are Greece, China, Rome and Egypt.

    [12:40] 4. I would like to introduce two fellow City Building friends of mine Â$(H D(Bane Benford and Schmophitt Neruda

20. beladona Memorial
    

    [12:41] /c

21. Sitearm Madonna
    

    [12:41] 5. In the Walkthrough Demo we will have a chance for questions and discussion as we move through the builds

    [12:41] . First a disclaimer — "city building in virtual reality" is NOT a reality yet

    [12:41] . My goal is to present this concept for discussion and implementation over time

    [12:41] . I am here at Kuurian Expedition because Poinky Malaprop come to our first city building event here on Annenberg Island

    [12:41] . So I figure there is something in this concept that engages other’s attention as it does mine

    [12:42] . Here is our timeline — present the concept, show two demos, then discuss

    [12:42] "about an hour , including discussion.. will get you out on time

    [12:42] . I invite you to look over the rest of the island at the end of the talk if you have not been here before

    [12:42] . A brief word about my background

    [12:42] . I am a listed LL developer

    [12:43] . My key roles are to consult and expedite selected Second Life Virtual Worlds Projects

    [12:43] . Today we want to present the concept of city building in virtual reality

    [12:43] . And enroll those of you who are interested in helping us work out how to do it in Second Life

    [12:43] . To reach these goals we will understand the purpose of the sim we are in and why it is an appropriate host for this topic

    [12:44] . We will also look at what defines the "genre" of a city building computer game and how it might extend into a virtual reality platform

    [12:44] . We will be looking at some builds today but there is also a web links notecard handout I will provide

    [12:44] . The sim we are in is Annenberg Island owned by the University of Southern California

    [12:44] . The Center on Diplomacy runs a unique project called "Public Diplomacy and Virtual Worlds"

    [12:45] . This sim is therefore what I call a Concept Sim. It’s purpose is to present information in an engaging manner.

    [12:45] . It’s mission is to keep exploring (!) how virtual worlds can help better connect people

    [12:45] (get it "explore"

    [12:45] *coff* sorry

22. totally Vavoom
    

    [12:45]

23. Sitearm Madonna
    

    [12:45] . What is a city building game?

    [12:45] . Well the very first was SimCity

    [12:46] . Bottom line — you are the city planner — and you make the decisions where to invest workforce and finance to meet basic needs of your citizens

    [12:46] . The computer runs the citizens for you

    [12:46] . The fascination of a good city building game is in the combination of its logical intricacy and its people orientation

    [12:46] hi IN.. have a seat

    [12:46] . You have to juggle many factors all at once. We will see some examples in a minute.

    [12:47] . Working to build a working city with satisfied citizens and high quality of life can be Very addicting o..O

    [12:47] . Now let’s discuss city building as it might be done in virtual reality

    [12:47] . What would City Building in Virtual Reality look like if we had it?

    [12:47] . In current city building games you don’t get to BE one of your citizens, you don’t get to WALK IN the city you have created

    [12:48] . Therefore, in a virtual reality city builder, the City Planner should be able to be one of her characters, "in world" , "in avatar"

    [12:48] . In current city building games, you interact with computer City Planners for trade and economic cooperation, or war and economic competition.

24. Second Life
    

    [12:48] Poinky Malaprop sings “What if god was one of us..?”

25. Sitearm Madonna
    

    [12:48] @Poinky

26. totally Vavoom
    

    [12:48] just a slob like one of us!! TV warbles!

27. Sitearm Madonna
    

    [12:48] . Therefore, in virtual reality city builder, the City Planners should be able to interact online with other, live City Planners.

    [12:49] . Perhaps even walk your avatar in Their cities as well as yours

    [12:49] . Finally, a virtual reality city builder should be able to run 24.7 (barring Update Wednesdays ).

    [12:49] . Why? Because cities evolve and grow and trade whether the City Planner is awake and online or not

    [12:50] . City Building in virtual reality sounds abstractÂ,T (Bwhy bother with it?

    [12:50] . First, current city builders are avid to walk IN their cities as one of their citizens.

    [12:50] . The newest games use movable 3D game engines instead of fixed Isometric "god’s eye" views.

    [12:50] . This has just served to whet gamers’ appetites even more

    [12:50] . Second, city building embeds major assumptions about economics and social dynamics.

    [12:51] . As in any simulation you learn a LOT from seeing how the assumptions play out.

    [12:51] . And thirdÂ,T (Bit’s FUN!

28. Cara Fei
    

    [12:51] yeah

29. Sitearm Madonna
    

    [12:51] . Are we already doing city building in virtual reality?

    [12:51] . Short answer — no

    [12:51] . Long answer — bits and pieces are coming into play

    [12:52] Here is a suggested Checklist for City Building in Virtual Reality

    [12:52] . It must have economics — costs to cover, income to earn, growth to fund

    [12:52] . It must have architecture — functional fun structures to do things in

    [12:52] . It must have demographics — model behavior cos people are Not robots

    [12:52] . And it must be rich enough to be fun and engaging

    [12:53] . Now I would like to direct your attention to the Scale Model city to the left of the slide screen

    [12:53] . In this simple city builder model we start HERE with the one essential, food, represented here by a wheat field and the Farmer’s Barn

    [12:53] . Over HERE we have another resource, Clay, with the Potter’s Shed located next to it

    [12:54] . Over HERE we have a vital element, a School

    [12:54] . Over HERE we have a Clinic for the doctor to treat patients in

    [12:54] . And finally HERE we have a Warehouse where goods are stored for exchange. This represents Mediation or Government

    [12:55] . Looking back now at the slide display, here is a display of the economic flow of skills between those five structures we just looked at

    [12:55] . Farmer exchanges Wheat for services such as instruction and health care

    [12:55] . Potter makes useful pots to put things in, in exchange for Wheat and other services

    [12:55] hi Diesel.. have a seat

    [12:56] . A city builder must model the exchange of skills because advanced societies develop only when skills can be specialized and deepened

    [12:56] . Here on the slide display is a list of the structures we looked at in the scale model

    [12:56] . Notice that people need a place to LIVE in as well as WORK in

    [12:56] . And we have not even addressed entertainment or spirituality in this simple model

    [12:57] . Finally, on this slide, we hint at the demographics or people side of what a city builder must model

    [12:57] . Population and available workforce contrast with workforce demand (underemployment is not good nor is not having enough people for the work needed)

    [12:57] . Family relationships have been modeled in some city builders — Dad starts as a farmer but Daughter becomes a doctor, for example

    [12:58] . The intangible aspects of demographics are included in city builders as well, including morale and aesthetics

    [12:58] . Before we go to the walkthrough portion of today’s talk, here are some web resources that provide more information on city building

    [12:58] . These links are available on a notecard as well

    [12:59] Frank might you hand it out for me ?

30. Frank Koolhaas
    

    [12:59] yes

31. Sitearm Madonna
    

    [12:59] ok we will get the notecard to you before end of the talk

    [12:59] . Now on to the walkthrough demo

32. Frank Koolhaas
    

    [12:59]

33. Sitearm Madonna
    

    [12:59] please stay fully Seated

34. Second Life
    

    [13:00] beladona Memorial holds on

35. Sitearm Madonna
    

    [13:00] whew !

    [13:00] ok before we deplane

    [13:00] we are going to walk you around this build

36. Poinky Malaprop
    

    [13:00] some people’s prim hair seems to have blown off

37. Sitearm Madonna
    

    [13:00] and show some of the structures

    [13:01] heh

    [13:01] so follow me and Dane to your RIGHT to the Bust Garden first stop

    [13:01] ignore the Time Dilation

    [13:01] this Bust Garden was made by Schmophitt Neruda

    [13:02] and shows the name of the game we are demoing "Caesar IV"

    [13:02] and the studio "Tilted Mill:"

    [13:02] it is ALso an "aesthetic structure"

    [13:02] when you put a garden like this in your city

    [13:02] it increases the Appeal and Value of teh land

    [13:02] and increases taxes you can levy

38. Vincent Doctorow
    

    [13:03] mm, taxes.

39. Sitearm Madonna
    

    [13:03] ok NEXT up the Fountain.. follow me

    [13:03] this FOuntain is also by Schmophitt

    [13:03] it is even higher appeal

    [13:03] I should mention these builds were done from images before the game even came out

    [13:04] so again Bust Garden and FOuntain are about Aesthetics and Appeal

    [13:04] over HERE is an Obelish

40. Poinky Malaprop
    

    [13:04] which game? did you mention it?

41. Sitearm Madonna
    

    [13:04] Obelisk

    [13:04] @POinky "Caesar IV"

    [13:04] the obelish has Egyptian Hieroglypics

    [13:04] for "Tilted Mill"

    [13:04] in the Game it represents a Military Victory

    [13:05] yes you can have military in city builders too BUT

    [13:05] you have to pay for it and you have to keep the citizens satisifed about it

    [13:05] heh.. sound famillar ?

    [13:05] ok these Displays

    [13:05] show different play styles from people all around the world that are brought together by the game

    [13:06] each of the Names is a registrant in Tilted Mill forums

42. Decka Mah
    

    [13:06] /hug Diesel Tuck

43. Sitearm Madonna
    

    [13:06] and Tilted Mill is where I, Schmophitt and Dane found out about Second Life

44. Second Life
    

    [13:06] Decka gives Diesel a big hug.

45. Sitearm Madonna
    

    [13:06] these were done using the free downloadable demo

46. Second Life
    

    [13:06] Dane Benford nods

47. Sitearm Madonna
    

    [13:06] you can get the web link from one of the yellow signs

    [13:07] ok now we will go to the BIG BUILDS

48. Frank Koolhaas
    

    [13:07] very nice

49. Sitearm Madonna
    

    [13:07] follow me to the Market now please

    [13:07] the Market has two key purposes

    [13:08] . supplies the citizens with goods (food, pots in our example)

    [13:08] and . venue for trade with other cities

    [13:08] to earn income for growth

    [13:08] the tables are the sales area

    [13:08] the brick area is storage for trade

    [13:08] Dane here did this entire Market from flat images

    [13:08] on the tables

    [13:09] some of us city builders have been learning how to make goods to sell

    [13:09] but frankly Dane has us beat o..O

50. Dane Benford
    

    [13:09] :p

51. Sitearm Madonna
    

    [13:09] (Dane chime in anytime

    [13:09] ok next the WINERY !

52. Dane Benford
    

    [13:09] btw all the thinks on the tables are free to copy

    [13:09] things*

53. Sitearm Madonna
    

    [13:10] the WInery is an example of 1. Industyr, and 2. Luxury Good

54. Second Life
    

    [13:10] Autopilot canceled

55. Sitearm Madonna
    

    [13:10] here is Dane’s newest, a Wine Press

    [13:10] up on the second level, amphorae in racks

    [13:10] and if you saw them, on the outside were large Wine Casks

    [13:10] all custom work by Dane

    [13:10] who is an artist in real life

    [13:10] Dane, comments?

56. Poinky Malaprop
    

    [13:11] so.. I’m not sure I get what you’re setting up? Will these be pieces for players to use in the city building game?

57. Dane Benford
    

    [13:11] all done last night in a panic I will add

58. Sitearm Madonna
    

    [13:11] ah let’s go to the last build Poinky

59. Poinky Malaprop
    

    [13:11] or are users supposed to build these things?

60. Sitearm Madonna
    

    [13:11] and take questions there

    [13:11] lead the way to the Temple

    [13:11] tight quarters

61. Dane Benford
    

    [13:11] mouselock helps

62. Second Life
    

    [13:11] Autopilot canceled

63. Sitearm Madonna
    

    [13:12] ok while people look inside I will be happy to take questions and discuss

64. Frank Koolhaas
    

    [13:12] very intteresting

65. Vincent Doctorow
    

    [13:12] Man, I came late.

    [13:12] Is this a USC program?

66. Sitearm Madonna
    

    [13:12] the inside is really nice

67. Grace McDunnough
    

    [13:13] PM, I am making you a suit of armor to replace that HAT!

68. Vincent Doctorow
    

    [13:13] I’m sorry I came a little late.

69. Sitearm Madonna
    

    [13:13] np

70. Poinky Malaprop
    

    [13:13] so, can you clarify the vision? who will the players be?scity planners and also citizens?

71. Vincent Doctorow
    

    [13:13] In a nut shell, what’re you guys doing?

72. Sitearm Madonna
    

    [13:14] we said there were several criteria for a City Builder in Virtual Reality

    [13:14] 1. Economics, 2. Architecture, 3. Demographics

    [13:14] for ARchitecture need to be able to walk in it

    [13:14] so we have done that so far

    [13:15] we have several model cities in SL now of course

73. Frank Koolhaas
    

    [13:15] a question: what must be different from real urban planning here?

74. Sitearm Madonna
    

    [13:15] Parioli Rome for example

    [13:15] Dublin Ireland

    [13:15] but

    [13:15] having a City Planner in charge of Economics

    [13:15] having Citizens and Demographics

    [13:15] those are NOT in SL

75. Cara Fei
    

    [13:16] in SL we dont need infrastructure

76. Frank Koolhaas
    

    [13:16] Site, you don’t think that a RL urban planner would change his world if he managed it?

77. Sitearm Madonna
    

    [13:16]

    [13:16] well here’s the thing ..

    [13:16] in a realistically modeled city we’d not be flying about

78. totally Vavoom
    

    [13:16] lol!

79. Sitearm Madonna
    

    [13:17] and the carts or (or cars) would truly have to abide by physics

    [13:17] I remember in SimCity the first

    [13:17] the difference between adding Rail vs. More Roads

    [13:17] More Roads in the model always made traffic jams

    [13:17] Rail cost a LOT but where it went in there were no more jams

    [13:17] people ARgued with that economic assumption

    [13:18] also SimCity said

    [13:18] if you raise taxes TOO much people will leave

    [13:18] people argued with that too

    [13:18] but um.. it seems to have proved out as accurate

80. William Bunavad
    

    [13:18] it was a basic model, if I may interfect.

81. Dane Benford
    

    [13:18] people seem to move where the taxes are lower I think

82. Sitearm Madonna
    

    [13:18] surely William

83. Frank Koolhaas
    

    [13:18] another thing: here one can go from a place to another with tp…

84. Sitearm Madonna
    

    [13:19] this is the free for all, I mean "discussion" part now

85. Frank Koolhaas
    

    [13:19] we don’have many roads, many distance…

86. beladona Memorial
    

    [13:19] but then they demand the services that can only be funded by taxes

87. Frank Koolhaas
    

    [13:19] would it be better to have?

88. William Bunavad
    

    [13:19] tp is alright, but it’s not the same as reality. infrastructure is a way of limiting things. here you can jam as many people as you want into a single space.

89. Cara Fei
    

    [13:19] roads in Sl are annoying

90. William Bunavad
    

    [13:19] perhaps because they’re redundant if you can fly.

91. Sitearm Madonna
    

    [13:19] yes

92. Cara Fei
    

    [13:19] they are ugly

93. Frank Koolhaas
    

    [13:19] yes, but you don’t experience the travel

94. Cara Fei
    

    [13:20] and redundant

95. totally Vavoom
    

    [13:20] I guess I don’t see the point of creating a RL sceanrio here except for learning purposes

96. Sitearm Madonna
    

    [13:20] have any of you sailed in SL ?

97. Grace McDunnough
    

    [13:20] Yes

98. Frank Koolhaas
    

    [13:20] no

99. Cara Fei
    

    [13:20] yes

100. Takver Twin
     

     [13:20] yes

101. Sitearm Madonna
     

     [13:20] did yo uenjoy it Grace , Tak ?

102. totally Vavoom
     

     [13:20] no

103. Puglet Dancer
     

     [13:20] yes

104. Grace McDunnough
     

     [13:20] I do.

105. Sitearm Madonna
     

     [13:20] I am astonished how nice it feels!

106. Takver Twin
     

     [13:20] not especially

107. Grace McDunnough
     

     [13:20] I also enjot skydiving

108. beladona Memorial
     

     [13:20] yes

109. Cara Fei
     

     [13:20] bt a road cuts nature and asthestics

110. totally Vavoom
     

     [13:20] Is the point then that is world allows us to do things that we may not in real life?

111. beladona Memorial
     

     [13:21] altho sometimes there are problems when you cross sim lines

112. Sitearm Madonna
     

     [13:21] let me address Vavoom’s comment

     [13:21] "[13:20] totally Vavoom: I guess I don’t see the point of creating a RL sceanrio here except for learning purposes"

113. Vincent Doctorow
     

     [13:21] Well there’s a whole discussion about two different strains of thought in Second Life, where some want to import stuff from the real life and others want to make a whole different world.

     [13:21] It just depends on the person.

     [13:21] Some people want to see famliar stuff.

     [13:21] I for one like the roads

114. Sitearm Madonna
     

     [13:21] the one thing SL has going for it is

115. Vincent Doctorow
     

     [13:21] If they’re done right

116. Sitearm Madonna
     

     [13:21] let’s face it, it is 3D walkthroughable

     [13:21] but it has no game engine add on

117. totally Vavoom
     

     [13:21] I agree with that, that some want familiar stuff and others don’t

118. Sitearm Madonna
     

     [13:22] we would need to put two different things together

     [13:22] the Game Engine of Caesar IV with the 3D Walkthrough Engine of Second Life

119. totally Vavoom
     

     [13:22] and the purpose or goal of that is?

120. Vincent Doctorow
     

     [13:22] The SL stuff needs to go open source then.

121. Sitearm Madonna
     

     [13:22] and that is not going to happen this year or next

122. William Bunavad
     

     [13:22] well, the physics model exists… that’s all yo ureally need. some limits can be placed on using ‘infrastrcture’ if you wish.

123. Grace McDunnough
     

     [13:22] Can you tell us specifically what you mean by "game engine"

124. Sitearm Madonna
     

     [13:23] @totally – because in modeling economic cooperation and competition people learn new ways to work together

125. William Bunavad
     

     [13:23] I hear that it will become open once a protocol is stabilized.

126. Sitearm Madonna
     

     [13:23] which is a goal of mine for one

     [13:23] and of the annenberg project for another

     [13:23]

127. totally Vavoom
     

     [13:23] aha! ok, I see where you are going with this now, I think . thanks!

128. Vincent Doctorow
     

     [13:23] Does the annenberg project have a website.

129. Sitearm Madonna
     

     [13:23] surely

     [13:23] @Vincent yes

130. Vincent Doctorow
     

     [13:23] =D can I have the link please

     [13:23] sorry if you gave it earlier.

     [13:23] I was at work.

     [13:23] At USC incidentally =D

131. totally Vavoom
     

     [13:23] so the goal is to study how people connect and collaborate via a gaming model in a virtual world?

132. William Bunavad
     

     [13:24] isn’t the economix cooperation and competition implicit in SL b/c of the real people involved in the world?

133. Frank Koolhaas
     

     [13:24] sorry

134. Cara Fei
     

     [13:24] thx

135. William Bunavad
     

     [13:24] perhaps i’m missing something

136. Second Life
     

     [13:24] Sitearm Madonna gave you city building information card 1-0.

137. totally Vavoom
     

     [13:24] with you, I’m not quite getting the point here

138. Sitearm Madonna
     

     [13:24] ok if I did taht right

     [13:24] you all have

139. beladona Memorial
     

     [13:24] ty Frank

140. Frank Koolhaas
     

     [13:24]

141. Sitearm Madonna
     

     [13:24] "[13:20] totally Vavoom: I guess I don’t see the point of creating a RL sceanrio here except for learning purposes"

142. Puglet Dancer
     

     [13:24] Thanks Frank

143. Cara Fei
     

     [13:25] what’s the point you want to make?

144. Vincent Doctorow
     

     [13:25] Haha, such open ended questions.

145. Sitearm Madonna
     

     [13:25] well I will recap my two points for us

     [13:26] . Today we want to present the concept of city building in virtual reality

     [13:26] . And enroll those of you who are interested in helping us work out how to do it in Second Life

     [13:26] and if it does not interest you per se there may yet be a piece that does

     [13:26] for example Frank here loves the concept

146. William Bunavad
     

     [13:26] i see, the point is to have the computer run citizens FOR you… like robots.

147. Sitearm Madonna
     

     [13:26] of "living architecture"

     [13:26] and I maintain that "living architecure"

     [13:26] is the architecture that people LIVE in

     [13:27] (but it has other interpretations too)

148. Vincent Doctorow
     

     [13:27] how is this different from other places where cities have been built and people are under a form of government

     [13:27] like Neufreistadt

     [13:27] Which comes to mind

149. Sitearm Madonna
     

     [13:27] oh that is a good question

     [13:27] can Neufreistadt be considered a city builder

150. Vincent Doctorow
     

     [13:27] =D yeah

151. Sitearm Madonna
     

     [13:28] one of the learnings of city builders is "juggling many factors"

     [13:28] including economics and people

     [13:28] a balancing act

     [13:28] are the folks in Neufrie thingie learning from it

     [13:29] and are they having fun yet

152. Vincent Doctorow
     

     [13:29] Which is funny pertinent because Neufreistadt is the second manifestation; the first one sort of got messed up by politics

153. Cara Fei
     

     [13:29] dunno about neufreistadt

154. Poinky Malaprop
     

     [13:29] so, they could have used the game to try things out before hand?

155. Sitearm Madonna
     

     [13:29] yes

156. Cara Fei
     

     [13:29] dunno that place, honestly but what does it mean for SL?

     [13:30] for us?

157. Poinky Malaprop
     

     [13:30] so, I’m still trying to understand whether there will be some players that are "planners" and others that are just citizens?

158. Vincent Doctorow
     

     [13:30] It means that there can be an internal government

     [13:30] SL right now is sort of anarchic/Linden dictatorship

159. Sitearm Madonna
     

     [13:30] @Poinky short answer is start as city planners

     [13:30] but there is an interesting play on that

     [13:30] in the Egypt game

     [13:31] citizens are free to come or leave

160. Vincent Doctorow
     

     [13:31] Well; analogously at Neufreistadt there’s a "council" of people who run things and then there are tenants who are "just citizens", no?

161. Sitearm Madonna
     

     [13:31] they can forage and feed themselves

     [13:31] so the leader, you, Pharoah have to atTRAct them to wanna make a city with you

162. Vincent Doctorow
     

     [13:31] How about the Gorean roleplayers, are they city builders?

163. Sitearm Madonna
     

     [13:31] and what you have to attract is what we called "ability to develop specialized skills"

164. Vincent Doctorow
     

     [13:31] There are several competing Gorean sims or "cieties"

     [13:31] They have to attract citizens

     [13:32] or risk losing them to other sims

165. Sitearm Madonna
     

     [13:32] yes

     [13:32] in fact most sims in SL seem to be empthy

166. Dane Benford
     

     [13:32] I belive that game was considered a breakthrough sitearm the egyptian one

167. Poinky Malaprop
     

     [13:32] but before you get to that point, would you have robot citizens?

168. Cara Fei
     

     [13:32] maybe the players of those games like hierachies?

169. Sitearm Madonna
     

     [13:32] heh why not Poinky ?

170. Poinky Malaprop
     

     [13:32] hard to script

171. Cara Fei
     

     [13:32] maybe it’s more of a psychological phenomenon?

172. Sitearm Madonna
     

     [13:32] lordy yes!

173. William Bunavad
     

     [13:32] are you proposing buliding cities with real citizens or robots? with people not needing to eat in SL, how would you convince people to work?

174. Dane Benford
     

     [13:32] It was the first city builder also called a nurture game by some

175. Vincent Doctorow
     

     [13:33] Having robot citizens would make the socities nice and stratified

176. William Bunavad
     

     [13:33] are you even talking about city building in SL? (I hope so

177. Vincent Doctorow
     

     [13:33] you’d have your nobles and tenants – real people – and nice group of slave labor – unquestinooing robot people haha

     [13:33] No I don’t Scope

178. Poinky Malaprop
     

     [13:33] until the robot’s turn sentient..

179. Vincent Doctorow
     

     [13:33] Har har

180. Poinky Malaprop
     

     [13:34] So, you said you wanted to recruit – what’s the plan? What are the tasks ppl can sign up for?

181. Cara Fei
     

     [13:34] i personally registered to Sl because it seems like being the only game without hierachies

182. Vincent Doctorow
     

     [13:34] Yes, listeners want to know!

     [13:34] But SL culture-wise is so enormlously diverse you can’t say whether or not the system as a whole has or doesn’t have hierarhcies

183. Sitearm Madonna
     

     [13:34] oh ack Poinky

     [13:35] well the thing Dane and I did so far was work on that simple model economy we showed you on the slides

184. Vincent Doctorow
     

     [13:35] there are subcultures that embrace hierarhcies and then there are suspicions of grid-wide hierarchies as well; there are divisions petween people who can script and people who can’t

185. Sitearm Madonna
     

     [13:35] and start to discuss if it could be scripted

186. Cara Fei
     

     [13:35] ok… the one with the lesser heirarchies *g

187. Vincent Doctorow
     

     [13:35] people who can build and people who cna’t

     [13:35] people who produce and people who consume

     [13:35] "feted inner core"

     [13:35] that jazz

188. Cara Fei
     

     [13:35] you can still make a happy living here without any skills

189. Vincent Doctorow
     

     [13:36] =D I make my happy living without any skills – but spend money doing so

     [13:36] har

190. Decka Mah
     

     [13:36] Cara…perhaps it is a game, like life, where the heirarchies ar just not set by the game builder but develop through interaction, chance, relationships

191. Cara Fei
     

     [13:36] no, even as basic account

     [13:36] decka: that’s human and depends on the mentality of the player

     [13:36] but it is not system-immanent

192. Frank Koolhaas
     

     [13:36] Site, the worlds could represent an utopian vision. Do you think they reflet this?

193. Vincent Doctorow
     

     [13:37] it depends on the mentality of the players, plural

194. Cara Fei
     

     [13:37] ok

195. Sitearm Madonna
     

     [13:37] well FRank

     [13:37] if you look at those 20 displays on the plaza

196. Decka Mah
     

     [13:37] Vincent the heirarchies exist in the minds of the players here

197. Sitearm Madonna
     

     [13:37] there are some very different looks

198. Vincent Doctorow
     

     [13:37] I think all of us, with our computers, coming from post industrial, first world societies, we are naturally going to organize ourselves into hierarchies

199. Sitearm Madonna
     

     [13:38] so a city builder lets players design the way THEY see it working

200. Cara Fei
     

     [13:38] vince: not me *g

201. Vincent Doctorow
     

     [13:38] even the most basica organizing social tool in SL, groups, is about hierarchies

202. Decka Mah
     

     [13:38] bye all …got ot go sadly. Thanks

203. Second Life
     

     [13:38] Poinky Malaprop clears his throat

204. William Bunavad
     

     [13:38] hiercharchy is implicit in the world (and any world), as far as i see it.

205. Cara Fei
     

     [13:38] bye decka

206. Poinky Malaprop
     

     [13:38] Ok, we’re over time

207. Vincent Doctorow
     

     [13:38] Awww.

208. Poinky Malaprop
     

     [13:38] so let’s give Sitearm a round of applause

209. Frank Koolhaas
     

     [13:38] yes, Site but I think that space, mostly the urban space influences your behavior…

210. Poinky Malaprop
     

     [13:38] I’m sure she’s happy to talk more

211. Vincent Doctorow
     

     [13:38] Well, Sitearm can you end by telling us what participation oppurtunities we have?

212. Grace McDunnough
     

     [13:38] Thanks Sitearm!

213. Poinky Malaprop
     

     [13:39] and contact her if you want to help out

214. Sitearm Madonna
     

     [13:39] ty ty

215. beladona Memorial
     

     [13:39] thank you Sitearm

216. Vincent Doctorow
     

     [13:39] Hooray

217. Dane Benford
     

     [13:39] I myself build lush green cities with asd many gardens as I can fit, where as others build for efficiancy

218. Vincent Doctorow
     

     [13:39] Fight On SC!

219. Cara Fei
     

     [13:39] good job, sitearm

220. Vincent Doctorow
     

     [13:39] o_o;

221. Frank Koolhaas
     

     [13:39] bravo!!!!

222. Takver Twin
     

     [13:39] thanks

223. Sitearm Madonna
     

     [13:39] well re participation I recommend you download the demo and try it out

224. Frank Koolhaas
     

     [13:39] thanks

225. Vincent Doctorow
     

     [13:39] Mkay.

226. Frank Koolhaas
     

     [13:39] wonderful meeting!

227. Puglet Dancer
     

     [13:39] Thank you!

228. Dane Benford
     

     [13:39] yay

229. Puglet Dancer
     

     [13:39] Gave me lots to think about.

230. Sitearm Madonna
     

     [13:39] you will either bless me and Dane or curse us

     [13:39] surely

231. Poinky Malaprop
     

     [13:39] yes, this was great – I loved the walking tour!

232. Sitearm Madonna
     

     [13:39] you are all most welcome

     [13:39] thank you for your generous attention !

233. Dane Benford
     

     [13:40] or you could just bless me and curse her;)

234. Vincent Doctorow
     

     [13:40] Yeah – in terms of lectures in SL, we need more walking and interactive stuff.

235. Frank Koolhaas
     

     [13:40] you are great!

236. Vincent Doctorow
     

     [13:40] Less sitting around and making it into an elaborate chatroom

237. Cara Fei
     

     [13:40] thank you sitearm for all this effort!

238. Vincent Doctorow
     

     [13:40] so this was a nice blueprint for what lectures in SL should be like

     [13:40] =D

239. Cara Fei
     

     [13:40] ok vince

240. Frank Koolhaas
     

     [13:40]

241. William Bunavad
     

     [13:40] i like teh garden and temple

242. Sitearm Madonna
     

     [13:40] @Vincent ty